1. Cosmos
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    25 Feb '05 08:50
    Ok, here it is at last - I found time to briefly outline this truth.

    GOD = An omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent entity who created the universe.

    1. God created the universe, but what created God? If God has always been in existence, then why not simply accept that the Universe has always been in existence? Inventing the concept of "GOD" to explain away the beginning of everything is totally question-begging.

    2. Unnecessary evil would not exist given the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent entity. Torture committed by the Spanish inquisition purely in GOD's name would never be allowed by that good entity who knew it was occurring and could stop it.

    3. Every proof of God invented by mankind is fundamentally flawed. Given this and the fact that nobody has ever seen, heard, touched, smelled, tasted (oo-er) GOD; there is no reliable evidence whatsoever for GOD's existence and no reason to believe in him (except for similarly misguided peer pressure).

    QED.
  2. Joined
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    25 Feb '05 09:08
    Originally posted by howardgee
    Ok, here it is at last - I found time to briefly outline this truth.

    GOD = An omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent entity who created the universe.

    1. God created the universe, but what created God? If God has always been in existence, then why not simply accept that the Universe has always been in existence? Inventing the concept of "GOD" to explain away the beginning of everything is totally question-begging.

    The religious would deny they invented the concept. They would say that God presented Himself to them.
  3. Joined
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    25 Feb '05 09:14
    Originally posted by howardgee
    Ok, here it is at last - I found time to briefly outline this truth.

    2. Unnecessary evil would not exist given the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent entity. Torture committed by the Spanish inquisition purely in GOD's name would never be allowed by that good entity who knew it was occurring and could stop it.

    The religious have an answer to this. Its called free will.

    While I feel this rebuttal is far too convienient, I cannot come up with an arguement to dismiss it. If I was God, I'd have no evil, but I am a simple human. There is no point using rational to decipher why a high being would do anything, because rational is inherently human.
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    25 Feb '05 09:17
    Originally posted by howardgee


    3. Every proof of God invented by mankind is fundamentally flawed. Given this and the fact that nobody has ever seen, heard, touched, smelled, tasted (oo-er) GOD; there is no reliable evidence whatsoever for GOD's existence and no reason to believe in him (except for similarly misguided peer pressure).
    A fundamental requisite of many religions is faith. Sureness in the face of little proof.

    Again, I have an issue with this, but its probably because I have no faith. I wish I did...
  5. Joined
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    25 Feb '05 09:32
    Originally posted by howardgee
    [b]Ok, here it is at last - I found time to briefly outline this truth.

    1. God created the universe, but what created God? If God has always been in existence, then why not simply accept that the Universe has always been in existence? Inventing the concept of "GOD" to explain away the beginning of everything is totally question-begging.

    Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
    The universe has a beginning.
    Therefore the universe has a cause.

    The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space.


    Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time — God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’ (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesn’t have a cause.

    In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.

    1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.
    2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.
    If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy — the ‘heat death’ of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible.

    So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down.


    Now, what if the questioner accepts that the universe had a beginning, but not that it needs a cause? But it is self-evident that things that begin have a cause — no-one really denies it in his heart. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. So would all law enforcement, if the police didn’t think they needed to find a cause for a stabbed body or a burgled house.

    Also, the universe cannot be self-caused — nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.

  6. Joined
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    25 Feb '05 09:36
    Originally posted by dj2becker

    Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
    The universe has a beginning.
    Therefore the universe has a cause.

    The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to ...[text shortened]... that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.

    Becker, I posted a response to a similar (extreamly) post in another thread and you didn't respond. Any chance you will this time?
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    25 Feb '05 09:39
    Originally posted by dj2becker

    Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
    The universe has a beginning.
    Therefore the universe has a cause.

    The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to ...[text shortened]... that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.

    😴 Blah 😴 blah 😴 blah 😴 POST 😴 SOMETHING 😴 ORIGINAL 😴 YOU 😴 CAN 😴 ACTUALLY 😴 UNDERSTAND! 😴
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    25 Feb '05 09:48
    Originally posted by howardgee
    [b]Ok, here it is at last - I found time to briefly outline this truth.

    2. Unnecessary evil would not exist given the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent entity. Torture committed by the Spanish inquisition purely in GOD's name would never be allowed by that good entity who knew it was occurring and could stop it.
    That is a good question.

    You could also ask how can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism.

    This is a real difficulty, but atheism is certainly not the answer, and neither is agnosticism. While there is much evil in the world, there is even more that is good. This is proved by the mere fact that people normally try to hang on to life as long as they can. Furthermore, everyone instinctively recognizes that "good" is a higher order of truth than "bad".

    We need also to recognize that our very minds were created by God. We can only use these minds to the extent that He allows, and it is, therefore, utterly presumptuous for us to use them to question Him and His motives.


    "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25).

    "Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:20).

    We ourselves do not establish the standards of what is right. Only the Creator of all reality can do that. We need to settle it, in our minds and hearts, whether we understand it or not, that whatever God does is, by definition, right.

    Having settled this by faith, we are then free to seek for ways in which we can profit spiritually from the sufferings in life as well as the blessings. As we consider such matters, it is helpful to keep the following great truths continually in our minds.

    There is really no such thing as the "innocent" suffering.

    Since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

    As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.

    The world is now under God's Curse (Genesis 3:17) because of man's rebellion against God's Word.

    This "bondage of corruption," with the "whole world groaning and travailing together in pain" (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).

    The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only truly "innocent" and "righteous" man in all history, nevertheless has suffered more than anyone else who ever lived.

    And this He did for us! "Christ died for our sins" (I Corinthians 15:3). He suffered and died, in order that ultimately He might deliver the world from the Curse, and that, even now, He can deliver from sin and its bondage anyone who will receive Him in faith as personal Lord and Savior. This great deliverance from the penalty of inherent sin, as well as of overt sins, very possibly also assures the salvation of those who have died before reaching an age of conscious choice of wrong over right.

    With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.

    The sufferings of unsaved men are often used by the Holy Spirit to cause them to realize their needs of salvation and to turn to Christ in repentance and faith. The sufferings of Christians should always be the means of developing a stronger dependence on God and a more Christ-like character, if they are properly "exercised thereby" (Hebrews 12:11).

    Thus, God is loving and merciful even when, "for the present," He allows trials and sufferings to come in our lives.

    "For we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28).

  9. Joined
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    25 Feb '05 09:561 edit
    Originally posted by Pullhard
    Becker, I posted a response to a similar (extreamly) post in another thread and you didn't respond. Any chance you will this time?
    Sorry, I must have missed it. I did not know you had seen the previous post.

    What I am trying to say is that it can be proved that the universe has a beginning. And therefore it needs a cause. Would you mind specifying what part of this you don't understand? As far as I can see that answers your question...
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    25 Feb '05 09:58
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Sorry, I must have missed it. I did not know you had seen the previous post.

    What I am trying to say is that it can be proved that the universe has a beginning. And therefore it needs a cause. Would you mind specifying what part of this you don't understand? As far as I can see that answers you question...
    Have you read my response in the other thread?
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    25 Feb '05 10:01
    Originally posted by Pullhard
    Have you read my response in the other thread?
    No. I said I must have missed it. I could check on it...
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    25 Feb '05 10:07
    I agree with the starter of the thread. Why? Lrts take the story of cinderella. All I have to do is to change "fairy Godmother" into "god", add in more chapters in the story to show what a great god "fairy godmother"is, then here is a new religion.(laughs).

    I feel that All religions are created THIS WAY.
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    25 Feb '05 10:08
    Originally posted by Pullhard
    Have you read my response in the other thread?
    Are you refering to the thread "Who Created God"? I checked it and couldn't locate your response. Do mind giving me the name and page number of the thread?
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    25 Feb '05 10:10
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Are you refering to the thread "Who Created God"? I checked it and couldn't locate your response. Do mind giving me the name and page number of the thread?
    Yes, first page, about three posts from the bottom.
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    25 Feb '05 10:15
    Originally posted by ChEsSExPeRt58
    I agree with the starter of the thread. Why? Lrts take the story of cinderella. All I have to do is to change "fairy Godmother" into "god", add in more chapters in the story to show what a great god "fairy godmother"is, then here is a new religion.(laughs).

    I feel that All religions are created THIS WAY.
    All religions are not the same — Biblical Christianity is absolutely unique among all the religions and philosophies of mankind. Its claim to be necessary for salvation is based squarely on the uniquely powerful evidences for its truth and finality. Actually, true Christianity is not a religion, but a person, Jesus Christ.

    "By Him, and for Him, were all things created" (note Colossians 1:16, 17).

    Thus, Christianity is unique in the following fundamental respects, among many others.

    Only in the Bible is God revealed as the one eternal, personal Creator, who brought the entire universe into existence by His own Word.

    All other religions start with the material universe as the only eternal reality, with their "gods" being essentially personifications of the natural forces which develop the universe into its present form.

    On the other hand, the Creator-God of the Bible has all power and is Himself, therefore, not only the One who created the universe but also the One who establishes the basis for human salvation.

    Christianity alone is centered in the historical events associated with a Person - the birth, death, resurrection, and imminent, glorious return of Jesus Christ.

    Other religions are invariably based on the teachings, rather than the acts, of their founders.

    Jesus Christ alone, of all men in history, has conquered man's greatest enemy - death.

    The founders of other religions are all dead and their tombs venerated. The tomb of Christ is empty, and His bodily resurrection from the grave is the best proved fact of all history. The fact that He alone could overcome death demonstrates that He alone has all power. He Himself said,

    "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me" (John 14:6).

    All other religions of the world are fundamentally just one religion — one of salvation by works. Each religion sets up a particular set of religious rites, of commands and restrictions, and of ethical principles to follow, and then teaches that if a man does these things he will be saved. The human origin of each of these systems is indicated by the fact that each is humanly attainable.

    The Bible, however, sets its moral and ethical standard as the very holiness and perfection of God Himself, and demands nothing less than this for salvation. Obviously, no man would invent a standard which was utterly impossible for any man to keep.

    The man Christ Jesus, alone of all men who ever lived, maintained in every respect a life of perfect holiness and full obedience to the Father, thus demonstrating that He was the God-Man. He then died for the sins of all men and thus can offer full pardon and His own nature of perfect holiness to anyone who receives Him.

    Christ alone offers salvation by grace alone, to be received only through faith in Him.

    To the one who truly believes on Him, He then gives through the Holy Spirit a new nature, enabling that one to live a life pleasing to God.

    There is no mere "religion" in all the world like this. Jesus Christ is the world's Creator, and its only true Redeemer.

    "Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).




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