01 Mar 05
Originally posted by vistesd12 hour days make it difficult to answer everything right away, and
Thanks Kelly. You must be back from a busy workweek. Need to think about what you said for a while, but you answered the questions--appreciate it.
because of that sometimes things slip by me too. 🙁
Kelly
01 Mar 05
Originally posted by KellyJayWell, I was just getting my first caffeine jump-start after a late night when I read your post the first time….
12 hour days make it difficult to answer everything right away, and
because of that sometimes things slip by me too. 🙁
Kelly
Based on our discussions in several threads, I think I now see—have a fuller picture of—where you’re coming from. I’m going to over-simplify it greatly (because your viewpoint is not simplistic) to put it into my own words, just to see if I’ve got it:
1) Ultimately it comes down to God’s grace.
2) Faith is acceptance of that grace, it is not a “work of the mind” that accesses grace—that comes from God.
3) Your particular understanding and beliefs—and faith-stance— also do not “produce” grace for you; they simply provide what someone called, I think, the “assurance of grace.” You offer that assurance to others, but you neither insist, nor dismiss them if their assurance comes from a different cluster of understandings and beliefs.
4) God meets us where we are—not where we “ought to be”—as long as we’re being real and authentic, so that’s not something we should waste a lot of time “wringing our hands” over. In fact, I don’t think you see honest questions and doubts as being the opposite of faith—they’re simply different things, and we shouldn’t get the concepts confused.
I think that goes a bit to your “no excuses” statement. If I’m real and authentic in my life (including the life of the mind) I’m unlikely to have any excuses to make, or feel the need to make any. If I’m being self-deceptive—well, I’m probably already making excuses to myself, and they probably don’t make much sense.
5) There are a lot of things to argue about, and argument (debate) can be helpful for sorting out our thoughts, re-examining our core understandings, and just growing. But none of those arguments trump God’s nature.
Some of this parallels your summary statement in another thread. I hope I’m not putting my thoughts in your mouth; I’m just trying to put it all in the kind of words that I’d use if I were talking to myself. If I’ve misconstrued you, let me know.
My summary position: If there’s a God, I live in a state of grace. If there’s no God, I live in a state of grace. I’ve written you elsewhere about the “source” of my unshakeable assurance of that (so you know it’s not a simplistic “shrug-of-the shoulders” position—for me it’s existentially real), and I won’t repeat it here.
Stephen
01 Mar 05
Originally posted by KellyJayHi Kelly,
You don't think you display a level of self-righteousness when you
talk about how others are doing wrong? If disagreements bother
you, why do you read here? My views are disagreed with all the time
and I'm not crying about it, this is a debate board correct?
I just read in another thread that someone wanted to put on trial
Christians to crucify the ...[text shortened]... ng their views too, or do
you just justify your loathing against religious people here?
Kelly
I appreciate your statements and I will try to give as honest answers as possible. I don’t think I am being self-righteous when I condemn Darfius and the like because I have no agenda I am trying to convince you of. I’m not attempting to persuade him or anyone else to the benefits of what I believe. I have said time and time again I have nothing against Christianity but in my own self-discovery I have determined it does not work for me. While I think he is sincere in his efforts, I find it personally offensive on how Darfius expresses his views on Christianity. I also find RBHILL, dj2becker, and BlindFaith101 equally offensive. As you wrote, I think the above people I mentioned are “doing wrong” in the messages they post not because it infringes on what I believe but it damns me for it as well. I guess why this issue gets my rancor up so much is because, to me, this is such an intangible subject where nothing conclusive has ever been determined. Sure I guess I could brush it off and not “cry” about it but this is something passionate to me as I imagine there are subjects you find are the same for you.
I also read about the Full Jesus Experience and, if the author of it was sincere about it, I would also find it disturbing. I chalk it up to dark humor which I happen to be fond of. I understand for some, like yourself, that would not be amusing. I can understand how some weak-minded people would use a joke like that as ammo to fuel some sick agenda but I don’t think the majority of the people who read it feel that way. I am truly sorry about your local church being bombed but should controversial subject matter not be satirized because most likely some whacko went off on their own tangent?
I have absolutely no issue with anyone expressing their views on anything except when their view tells me my view is wrong. I guess I wouldn’t mind if the issue was concrete such as if I were to deny the existence of the Pacific Ocean. I take exception to the folks I listed because they are carrying themselves as the self-proclaimed experts in this field.
01 Mar 05
Originally posted by Chessteen16I guess that’s the difference between us. You believe Christ died on a cross and I am not convinced of that. I will not attempt to prove you are wrong because for one, I couldn’t. It is also of no interest to me to take you away from what I imagine is the most important thing in your life: Your relationship with Christ. I also think the opposite should be respected and that’s my issue.
Believe me I would love to tell you about Christ and change what you think about him, Jesus died on a cross that is true, right?
Now, I was not there when he rose from the grave, but that’s the
Whole thing we have to have faith and trust that he did. God is not going to force us to believe and I not either but if you reject him
For while He says that he will just leave you alone.
I sincerely believe if someone went to the grocery store, bought a can of Coke, and decided that Coke can was their God it is their right to do so. What would be wrong is if that same person went up to random strangers and asked, “Do you accept my Coke can as your personal savior?” When the random stranger says, “No and you are a nut” then that person throws the can at the stranger until they accept his can.
01 Mar 05
Originally posted by KellyJayWell before I answer what you wrote, let me elaborate on my response to Darfius when asked the same question. I think it’s obvious what my answer would be and what most people would answer. My qualm isn’t necessarily with the message but more so with the issue of the messenger. I will grant I have not read all of your posts in any other threads you have written but I don’t believe you have grandstanded to the level of the likes I have mentioned. I don’t know if you are a Christian but that is really not an important question to ask. The important thing for me is that I don’t think Darfius and anyone else for that matter is a qualified expert on this subject. The expression “Go to Hell” is usually said when cursing someone and because my beliefs are different from his, he is telling me I am “going to Hell”. I take this as an offense and an unsolicited one at that. I wouldn’t tell anyone they were going to Hell if they did not subscribe to what I believe. I hope this clarifies my response and will most likely answer your question.
Just for the sake of argument nothing more and this is not meant
as a slam on Darfius or you either Joe, I want your opinion about
this.
I have seen this said a few times or something close to it.
"If your going to heaven, I want no part of it."
or just as powerful,
"If he is your God I want no part of Him."
These statements sort of stri ...[text shortened]... cause your name will now
be thrown in with the good and the bad examples of believers.
Kelly
I don’t want any part of the god Darfius describes because I think he is inaccurate. I cannot tell you what is right because I never claimed I knew in the first place.
I never in any situation implied that Darfius and his kind are standing between me & God. I don’t let those kind of people have that type of influence on me. My spirituality is my own private journey and I have discovered on my own what my beliefs are. I will grant you that they don’t help the situation any with their constant Bible bashing but my issue with Darfius is more so freedom of religious expression and his condemnation of others. Yes I think they are hypocrites mainly due to their methods and I think they do tend to repel people then to bring them in.
So to answer your final question I have chosen to be agnostic for my own private reasons. I assure you I made this decision to be so long before I engaged in any type of debate about it. I don’t consider myself a good or bad believer.
01 Mar 05
Originally posted by Joe FistI am a Christian, like you said that really does not matter. For me
Well before I answer what you wrote, let me elaborate on my response to Darfius when asked the same question. I think it’s obvious what my answer would be and what most people would answer. My qualm isn’t necessarily with the message but more so with the issue of the messenger. I will grant I have not read all of your posts in any other threads you have ...[text shortened]... efore I engaged in any type of debate about it. I don’t consider myself a good or bad believer.
I would just as soon talk to someone who is being real who disagrees
with me than fake and agrees with me. I believe God is the same,
even the scriptures say that God would rather someone be either hot
or cold than lukewarm, the lukewarm He will spew out of His mouth.
The hot when I read this would be those walking close to God and
their lives would reflect Him, while the cold would be those opposed
to God for various reasons, the lukewarm are the ‘so what group’ that
really don’t care one way or another. With the cold they are at least
engaged and stand a chance to be saved by engaging the truth and
then recognizing it. The lukewarm group doesn’t care one way or
another they are in their little world and don’t want to be bothered.
This is my opinion anyway of that.
I would point out that as a Christian a danger I see is that we are all
sinners and are heading toward Hell because of our sins. I'm not
saying this to point out your faults so I look better than you do, I
have my own faults, my own sins. The analogy I normally use is the
life boats on the Titanic, the ship is sinking and God has made away
for all to be saved, but only if they get on the life boats, which would
like a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. The end is coming
for everyone once the boat goes under the water which would be
like us coming before God in our own righteousness, the cold water
is death no matter what, the lifeboat is God’s salvation. If people
want to rearrange the chairs on the Titanic instead of making a choice
about what to do they will die when they come in contact with the water
it is unavoidable.
Kelly
02 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusWhere exactly are you reading "let's get everyone to feel warm inside rather than save their soul"? Did I write this? Did I suggest this? I have spoken many times of my beliefs in this forum, and they do not differ that much from yours. I believe in God. I believe that humans are inescapable flawed and sinful, and should be willing to repent for those sins, and be willing to admit those flaws. I believe that this should be done on one's own volition, what you would probably call "touched by the holy spirit" in your mythology. It should not be done out of fear of eternal damnation, for then it is never truly done, just as a boy afraid of punishment will put on a mask of respect for his parents.
Funny, I've never been afraid of God.
So I suppose Hitler is in heaven, Saul? That's what your "let's get everyone to feel warm inside rather than save their soul" doctrine says, right?
What a joke. If you're gunna preach that crap, please don't use the God of the Bible as your god. My God believes in love AND justice.
I have spoken many times of my beliefs, but for some reason all you hear is "blah blah blah unitarian hippie crap." I certainly do not think that everyone deserves to go to heaven. I don't have a lot of respect for humanity in general, so if you catch me on a bad day I wouldn't think anyone deserved it. But lucky for us, I am not the one doing the judging. And neither are you. Is Hitler in Heaven? How am I supposed to know? That is for God to decide.
How about you pull the cotton out of your ears and wipe the crust off your eyes and actually start reading posts and giving them a fair shake instead of immediately pouncing on them and seeing how you can twist an interpretation into an insult of the poster?
Don't ever suggest that I'm a Unitarian, or I'll start treating you as a Mormon.
... --- ...
02 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusActually, I don't believe in Hell other than the concept of eternal seperation from God, which is scary enough without the pitchforks and flames. But I could be wrong. There could be some spiritual detention cell for those not in God's favor. However, if such a place exists, I have no idea who goes there and who does not. THAT IS UP TO GOD TO JUDGE. I would assume that if the place exists, surely some people go there. However, what I say on that matter holds no weight. Which is probably good, for if I did have any say just about everyone would wind up there.
Does anyone go to hell, saul?
... --- ...
P.S. My name isn't Saul.
02 Mar 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulYou'll have to forgive me. Thesonofsaul is rather bothersome to type out.
Actually, I don't believe in Hell other than the concept of eternal seperation from God, which is scary enough without the pitchforks and flames. But I could be wrong. There could be some spiritual detention cell for those not in God's favor. However, if such a place exists, I have no idea who goes there and who does not. THAT IS UP TO GOD TO JUDG ...[text shortened]... ny say just about everyone would wind up there.
... --- ...
P.S. My name isn't Saul.
Yes, I agree, Hell is the eternal seperation from God. And since that concept comes straight from the Bible, then (since it would be the height of stupidity to pick and choose which parts to believe) then we can safely say that those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior go to hell.
Wouldn't you agree?
02 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusNot at all. The fact that the beliefs I choose as correct are similar to those in the Bible means nothing other than others have thought the same as me in the past. I find that encouraging. Other parts of what I believe are similar to parts of the Koran. Does that mean I should be a Muslim as well? No, of course not. Stop being rediculous and start actually thinking.
You'll have to forgive me. Thesonofsaul is rather bothersome to type out.
Yes, I agree, Hell is the eternal seperation from God. And since that concept comes straight from the Bible, then (since it would be the height of stupidity to pick and choose which parts to believe) then we can safely say that those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior go to hell.
Wouldn't you agree?
... --- ...
02 Mar 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulWow. Who else has agreed with your hybrid religion, saul? Your God sounds more like Santa Claus than a just God.
Not at all. The fact that the beliefs I choose as correct are similar to those in the Bible means nothing other than others have thought the same as me in the past. I find that encouraging. Other parts of what I believe are similar to parts of the Koran. Does that mean I should be a Muslim as well? No, of course not. Stop being rediculous and start actually thinking.
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02 Mar 05
Originally posted by DarfiusIt's not a religion. It's a set of ideas. And you yourself admited that at least one of those ideas appears in the Bible, therefore proving that someone else besides me had that idea.
Wow. Who else has agreed with your hybrid religion, saul? Your God sounds more like Santa Claus than a just God.
I am tired of your insults. I do not even believe that you read my posts. You say my God (who unlike your God is not made out of paper) is like Santa Claus. Meaning what? You certainly have no gift for metaphor.
And you're calling me saul again. If you want to know my name read your Bible for a change instead of regurgitating verses that others point out for you.
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02 Mar 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulSaul is who I will address you as, for brevity's sake. Feel free to answer to it or not, I really do not care. It is not out of disrespect.
It's not a religion. It's a set of ideas. And you yourself admited that at least one of those ideas appears in the Bible, therefore proving that someone else besides me had that idea.
I am tired of your insults. I do not even believe that you read my posts. You say my God (who unlike your God is not made out of paper) is like Santa Claus. Mea ...[text shortened]... ble for a change instead of regurgitating verses that others point out for you.
... --- ...
I compared your god (that clearly you got out of thin air) to Santa Claus because you are implying he allows everyone into your version of heaven, regardless of what they may have done on earth. I find your god to be weak and spineless.
On the contrary, I have read the Bible, but I do admit I don't have a photographic memory.