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Originally posted by @divegeester
Sure, Jesus did, god did.
Finally. So I need not ever ask you again.
Jesus spoke this about whom to fear.
God spoke this in Jesus about whom to fear.
That is that answer I get.
Is there some subtle implication I am missing by you using a small g in "god" rather than a capital "G" as in "God" ?
You're not afraid to write it as "God" are you ??
Tell me now so I know what you're implying, IF it is something significant to you.
What’s the big deal.
If God said it who should I believe you or God ?
That's the big deal.
Which should govern where my belief should rest - in your opinion or in God's word?
Now you still won’t answer my question to you will you?
What you mean is that I will not give you a simple Yes or a simple No. To that I don't argue.
But one thing is quite evident to me, your lack of vision of the nature of God has effected your spiritual walk in a negative way. I think it explains some of your immaturity and self centeredness.
You are a spiritual coward sonship.
No, there is no cowardice because I don't believe it is possible for Christians to ALWAYS tell who can or cannot be saved based discussions on the Trinity.
If there is any cowardice it is more likely from you who doesn't have the courage to announce before God that you now better than Christ and God what OUGHT to happen to those beings which remain un-reconciled to God
If YOU have all the courage and I don't then plainly state that Jesus Christ had LESS truth than YOU have to speak these words.
"But I will show you whom you should fear, fear Him who after killing, has the authority to cast into Gehenna,
yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:5)
Admit that your opinion carries more authority than the teaching of Jesus Christ, and WHY.
Show us all this great courage you have.
Originally posted by @sonshipYou really need to calm down sonship.Sure, Jesus did, god did.
Finally. So I need not ever ask you again.
Jesus spoke this about whom to fear.
God spoke this in Jesus about whom to fear.
That is that answer I get.
Is there some subtle implication I am missing by you using a small g in "god" rather than a capital "G" as in [b]"God" ?
You're not afraid to write ...[text shortened]... thority than the teaching of Jesus Christ, and WHY.
Show us all this great courage you have.[/b]
Jesus spoke in parables all the time. Do you think there was really a literal pearl in a field.
Get your head out of the sand, free yourself of your vanity and open your eyes.
Posted by sonship
“No, there is no cowardice because I don't believe it is possible for Christians to ALWAYS tell who can or cannot be saved based discussions on the Trinity.”
That not what I said and you know it. I’m not asking you if you can tell if I’m saved and you know it. I’m not talking about “discussions on the trinity” and you know it.
I’m talking about lacking the courage to be truthful in your response to me asking you if I reject your trenching of the trinity am I precluded from salvation? Yes or no.
You are a coward because you know the answer but won’t say it due to your vanity.
26 Jun 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterYes, and I did remember this:
Have you even bothered to read my OP.
4) Scriptural literalism: every description of hell and eternal suffering in the bible is parabolic, metaphorical, visionary/dream-state. The hellers ignore this and CHOOSE to take it as being literal despite ignoring all the other crazy dream-state things in the bible such as whores riding multi-headed beasts while drinking cups of Christian blood. You CHOOSE to accept this aberration of eternal suffering as being literal.
However, I thought that plain references to hell in the Epistles and just one off remarks from Christ along the lines of "Fear those who can send you to hell," or the sober recounting of a parable were not really out of place...
Do you really think Paul or James or Peter were in some mystical state when they penned their letters to others, just referencing it?
And why did every single major tradition treat this as a literal, existing place?
And... if hell is a metaphor...
... Why isn't heaven just a metaphor?
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26 Jun 18
3 edits
Originally posted by @divegeester
You really need to calm down sonship.
Jesus spoke in parables all the time. Do you think there was really a literal pearl in a field.
Get your head out of the sand, free yourself of your vanity and open your eyes.
Its YOU who seem more governed by excited emotions Divegeester.
The PARABLE explanation is not broad enough to erase the effect of Luke 12:5 to this reader. And I think to probably most, the parable explanation is not enough to dull the force of the teaching.
You're welcomed to interpret the words so the effect is exactly the OPPOSITE of what they seem to intend. You have that right.
I'm interpreting them so they have a consistent force.
Ie. God is the one with an authority that reaches beyond our physical death. In other words - DEATH cannot be an escape if His ultimate authority wants to deal with you.
Details are arguable maybe.
The FORCE of the teaching remains,
Gehenna is the word symbol AND it is applied to men AFTER ... they leave this life.
I'm sorry.
Handwaving about parables doesn't dull the force of that passage to me.
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26 Jun 18
3 edits
Here's what we're dealing with in Divegeester's analysis.
Jesus spoke in parables all the time.
The fear that He teaches about God reaching you even should you die, is a parable.
Therefore though the teaching says "Yes, fear this one" the meaning is "Don't really fear this one."
His handwaving about the many parable of Jesus he is using to make the teaching of Luke 12:5 mean the OPPOSITE of what it says.
26 Jun 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterGood, bad, righteousness, lawlessness are all God, not me. I can tell you I am not a fan
Oh dear...
I’m not asking you if it’s your “call” to supernaturally keep a person in a state of consciousness existence in order to burn them alive for eternity.
I’m saying it is wrong to do so, and I’m asking you if you think it wrong too?
Do you?
of Hell, but it isn't up to me. As I said, not my call, I'm not the one that created the
universe, I'm not the one who holds it all together by the power of my word, I'm not the
who sees all our lives and what love and sin is among us, I'm not the one setting up the
next world which is not temporary as this one but eternal. Therefore, what He does with
what He is King over is up to Him, not me. Again, God not KellyJay sets the standards of
right and wrong, and seeing the world as it is now, we all would be better off it we did
actually obey the Lord, in loving one another and God. The fragmenting due to hate and
selfishness even here shows us what can happen. I wish we all would be ready, but only
a few by comparison will be saved missing the one Hope we have Jesus Christ.
26 Jun 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterI actually don't find jokes about Hell funny, among other things people take liberties with.
Yes “all jokes aside” huh....
😞
26 Jun 18
Originally posted by @sonshipIve made a 7 point argument on my op; simply claiming that it’s all literal doesn’t defeat one of those points, not even number 4
Here's what we're dealing with in Divegeester's analysis.
Jesus spoke in parables all the time.
The fear that He teaches about God reaching you even should you die, is a parable.
Therefore though the teaching says [b]"Yes, fear this one" the meaning is "Don't really fear this one."
His handwaving about the many parable of Jesus he is using to make the teaching of Luke 12:5 mean the OPPOSITE of what it says.[/b]
26 Jun 18
Originally posted by @kellyjayYes I know what you think of your version of god; why do you keep telling me.
Good, bad, righteousness, lawlessness are all God, not me. I can tell you I am not a fan
of Hell, but it isn't up to me. As I said, not my call, I'm not the one that created the
universe, I'm not the one who holds it all together by the power of my word, I'm not the
who sees all our lives and what love and sin is among us, I'm not the one setting up the ...[text shortened]... be ready, but only
a few by comparison will be saved missing the one Hope we have Jesus Christ.
Here is what I’m asking you:
I’m saying that it is wrong to supernaturally keep a person in a state of consciousness existence in order to burn them alive for eternity.
Do you think it is wrong; yes or no?
26 Jun 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterI said what I wanted to say. I don't feel the need to correct every wrong I see, I'm a little
Perhaps you would be better off directing this comment at whodey. Why haven’t you?
more concern about the logs in my own eyes than everything done by everyone else. I did
notice however that the posts where I responded to you were largely not responded to by
you. There some reason for that? I get your passion and such a hate for Hell, but I think
trying to get people to the one saving grace we have that God has provided, verses being
upset with the end result we have no control over would be time better spent. Yet, again
I don't find your passion about this in complete error, it is a horrible thing, but that doesn't
make it not real, true, or even just given all that God knows compared to what we know
now.
26 Jun 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterI've answered this not going to repeat myself.
Yes I know what you think of your version of god; why do you keep telling me.
Here is what I’m asking you:
I’m saying that it is wrong to supernaturally keep a person in a state of consciousness existence in order to burn them alive for eternity.
Do you think it is wrong; yes or no?
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26 Jun 18
Originally posted by @kellyjayThe issue I have Kelly Is that this 'eternal suffering in hell' is incongruous to the nature of God presented in the NT and the message conveyed by Jesus. I am not judging God by my own concept of morality (which I agree is finite and limited) but by God's own morality clearly expressed in the Bible.
I said what I wanted to say. I don't feel the need to correct every wrong I see, I'm a little
more concern about the logs in my own eyes than everything done by everyone else. I did
notice however that the posts where I responded to you were largely not responded to by
you. There some reason for that? I get your passion and such a hate for Hell, but I t ...[text shortened]... 't
make it not real, true, or even just given all that God knows compared to what we know
now.