Originally posted by TheSkipperThe wages of sin is death, no sin no death.
Interesting you should bring that up. Check out this curious little verse:
Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
This is interesting for a couple of reasons. 1. Most Christian ...[text shortened]... have already pointed out, they were never intended to live forever in the first place.
Angels who rebelled cannot be saved, they don't have death they
are in a state of continual rebellion and contamination, with death
God was able to redeem us, eating of the tree of life in the wrong
state before God wouldn't have been a good thing.
Kelly
Originally posted by KingDavid403Well, thats a relief.
Yes you are born without sin.
How do you square your theology with the words of St. Paul?
Romans 5:19
"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."
Seems, St. Paul thought we are born sinners, what do you know that he didn't? Feel free to simply say St. paul was wrong...I happen to believe he was wrong about lots of stuff.
Originally posted by KellyJayI don't think I'm following you...what does this have to do with fallen angels?
The wages of sin is death, no sin no death.
Angels who rebelled cannot be saved, they don't have death they
are in a state of continual rebellion and contamination, with death
God was able to redeem us, eating of the tree of life in the wrong
state before God wouldn't have been a good thing.
Kelly
Originally posted by TheSkipperGenesis 3:4
Interesting you should bring that up. Check out this curious little verse:
Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
This is interesting for a couple of reasons. 1. Most Christian ...[text shortened]... have already pointed out, they were never intended to live forever in the first place.
Then the serpent said to the woman " You surely will not die."
This is the lie.
1. Most Christians assume that before the fall Adam and Eve were immortal, but it is actually never stated as such in the Bible.
It's not stated that they were not immortal either.
And you are now assuming that they weren't.
GOD would not make us to suffer death and die.
Adam and eve threw the dice to be like GOD, or be GOD's and they lost just like GOD told them they would if they did. And everyone has chosen to sin since then because of their desire to sin. Even thow they know it's wrong.
We are All Worthy of death from GOD and the life HE gave us to be with HIM. But.....
Originally posted by TheSkipperYes you are born without sin.
Well, thats a relief.
How do you square your theology with the words of St. Paul?
Romans 5:19
"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."
Seems, St. Paul thought we are born sinners, what do you know that he didn't? Feel free to simply say St. paul was wrong...I happen to believe he was wrong about lots of stuff.
But you are born with the desire to sin. Our flesh screams to sin.
This was not the case before
This is what I said.
Many were made sinners because they are born with the desire to sin as I just stated. But you left that part out.
And this is what I beleive paul is saying also.
Originally posted by KingDavid403There is exactly zero evidence on which you can base your apparent assertion that Adam and Eve died any earlier than they were originally intended to. Thus the serpent did not decieve for he was responding to Eve's objection that she would die if she ate the fruit, the serpent said she would not, and indeed she did not.
Genesis 3:4
Then the serpent said to the woman " You surely will not die."
This is the lie.
There is no evidence that God had intended for them to live forever, and an honest reading of the text makes clear that Eve should have died on the spot the moment she touched the fruit.
Originally posted by KingDavid403Do I call you a murderer because i know you have within you the potential for murder? No, I call you a murderer if, and only if, you have actually committed murder.
[b]Yes you are born without sin.
But you are born with the desire to sin. Our flesh screams to sin.
This was not the case before
This is what I said.
Many were made sinners because they are born with the desire to sin as I just stated. But you left that part out.
And this is what I beleive paul is saying also.[/b]
St. Paul wrote it quite plainly, there is no need for us to stand it on its head to make it say what we want it to.
Originally posted by TheSkipperAnd there is exactly zero evidence on which you can base your apparent assertion that Adam and Eve were going to die and not live forever with GOD.
There is exactly zero evidence on which you can base your apparent assertion that Adam and Eve died any earlier than they were originally intended to. Thus the serpent did not decieve for he was responding to Eve's objection that she would die if she ate the fruit, the serpent said she would not, and indeed she did not.
There is no evidence that God h ...[text shortened]... of the text makes clear that Eve should have died on the spot the moment she touched the fruit.
And GOD never told them that they were going to die on the spot if they ate the fruit. HE said they were going to die and they DID. And the serpent told Eve she wasn't going to die. And she did. along with Adam.
1 edit
Originally posted by KingDavid403You bring with your interpretation the a priori assumption that Adam and Eve were supposed to live forever. This is what has thrown your entire understanding of the story of the fall out of whack.
And there is exactly zero evidence on which you can base your apparent assertion that Adam and Eve were going to die and not live forever with GOD.
And GOD never told them that they were going to die on the spot if they ate the fruit. HE said they were going to die and they DID. And the serpent told Eve she wasn't going to die. And she did. along with Adam.
Now, until you convince me that immortality is a reasonable a priori assumption to bring to this debate, you just aren't going to get anywhere. It seems to me that immortality is something that she be spelled out rather than assumed.
Originally posted by TheSkipperDo I call you a murderer because i know you have within you the potential for murder? No, I call you a murderer if, and only if, you have actually committed murder
Do I call you a murderer because i know you have within you the potential for murder? No, I call you a murderer if, and only if, you have actually committed murder.
St. Paul wrote it quite plainly, there is no need for us to stand it on its head to make it say what we want it to.
How about if I desire to murder people but don't actually do it??? But I still dream about it and think how great it would be if I actually did it. Would I be a murderer in my heart??? Damn right. JESUS said that also.
there is no need for us to stand it on its head to make it say what we want it to. Good try and trying to beat me to the punch line but it won't work. You are describing exactly what you are doing and have been doing.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungJesus is the only man without sin. He had an advantage being God and man.
If sin is something we choose or choose not to do, then it stands to reason that there are occasionally people who never sin. Now Jesus was supposedly one of these people, but he was supposedly God so there might be special rules for him.
Is it possible that there are people who are not God yet have managed to choose not to sin?
The litteral definition of sin is "missing the mark" (i believe this is correct, feel free to fact check it) Anything that is outside of perfection is missing the mark. Since we cant be perfect we miss the mark.
Originally posted by TheSkipperNow, until you convince me that immortality is a reasonable a priori assumption to bring to this debate, you just aren't going to get anywhere. It seems to me that immortality is something that she be spelled out rather than assumed. Well I can't convince you of anything. And with me immortality is something to be assumed with GOD instead of death from HIM. This is were faith comes in I guess.
You bring with your interpretation the a priori assumption that Adam and Eve were supposed to live forever. This is what has thrown your entire understanding of the story of the fall out of whack.
Now, until you convince me that immortality is a reasonable a priori assumption to bring to this debate, you just aren't going to get anywhere. It seems to me that immortality is something that she be spelled out rather than assumed.
Originally posted by KingDavid403Are you daft? A murderer is someone who has killed people. Find for me one definition of murderer that justifies your ridiculous statement that thinking about committing murder makes you a murderer.
[b]Do I call you a murderer because i know you have within you the potential for murder? No, I call you a murderer if, and only if, you have actually committed murder
How about if I desire to murder people but don't actually do it??? But I still dream about it and think how great it would be if I actually did it. Would I be a murderer in my he ...[text shortened]... ch line but it won't work. You are describing exactly what you are doing and have been doing.[/b]
Based on your incredibly flawed definition of murderer I can now say with extreme confidence that you are very much willing to make the written word say what you want it to say rather than understand what it actually says.
Originally posted by KingDavid403And there we have it, the seceret decoder ring defense in all its glory.
[b]Now, until you convince me that immortality is a reasonable a priori assumption to bring to this debate, you just aren't going to get anywhere. It seems to me that immortality is something that she be spelled out rather than assumed. Well I can't convince you of anything. And with me immortality is something to be assumed with GOD instead of death from HIM. This is were faith comes in I guess.[/b]
It was nice to meet you. I will again extend my thanks for your expressed concern for my soul, and bid you good day.
Be well.