Xians: Does anyone exist who has never sinned?

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Are you daft? A murderer is someone who has killed people. Find for me one definition of murderer that justifies your ridiculous statement that thinking about committing murder makes you a murderer.

Based on your incredibly flawed definition of murderer I can now say with extreme confidence that you are very much willing to make the written word say what you want it to say rather than understand what it actually says.

Sorry to butt in, 😉

But the bible does say to even think it, is a sin and is the same as doing it. That includes murder. Also fighting with a brother and not forgiving him is equivalent to murders judgement.

I didnt read all the posts so i dont meen to step on toes, but Jesus specificaly tells you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I dont see why this example of how sin works would only apply to adultry. We would have a mch bigger book if Jesus had to say every sin and exactly how you commit it rather then simply giving an example.

Originally posted by awalt08
Adam and Eve caused this dilemma.

Adam and Eve only caused this dilemma inasmuch as God made them with flawed personalities.
Certainly, being omnipotent and omniscient, God knew that the way He made them would result in
their fall from grace, yet He elected to do so anyway.

According to your hermeneutic, God set in motion the very fall of humankind with full knowledge and
utter complicity.

Nemesio

Originally posted by awalt08
when have you ever heard of God forcibly not allowing someone to try drugs?

It's called an analogy. Go look it up.

Originally posted by KingDavid403
[b]Do I call you a murderer because i know you have within you the potential for murder? No, I call you a murderer if, and only if, you have actually committed murder
How about if I desire to murder people but don't actually do it??? But I still dream about it and think how great it would be if I actually did it. Would I be a murderer in my he ...[text shortened]... ch line but it won't work. You are describing exactly what you are doing and have been doing.[/b]

I thought you said we are born without sin?

QED

Edit: You can find your post where you assure me we are born without sin towards the bottom of page seven.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
It's called an analogy. Go look it up.

i realize it's an analogy, thanks. the point i was making is that God has never not allowed someone to make a mistake.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Interesting you should bring that up. Check out this curious little verse:

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

This is interesting for a couple of reasons. 1. Most Christian ...[text shortened]... have already pointed out, they were never intended to live forever in the first place.

Right. That's the verse I was thinking of.

Excellent point about man's mortality and God's threat of death, which was shown to be hollow. I think a lot of Christians will try to salvage it by claiming the threatened death is a spiritual one, but that only strengthens the argument that Adam and Eve could not have understood the magnitude of the threatened punishment, and thus would not reasonably be deterred by it.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Adam and Eve only caused this dilemma inasmuch as God made them with flawed personalities.
Certainly, being omnipotent and omniscient, God knew that the way He made them would result in
their fall from grace, yet He elected to do so anyway.

According to your hermeneutic, God set in motion the very fall of humankind with full knowledge and
utter complicity.

Nemesio

your personality does not cause you to make mistakes. a personality cannot be flawed, it cannot be perfect. it just is what it is.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Are you daft? A murderer is someone who has killed people. Find for me one definition of murderer that justifies your ridiculous statement that thinking about committing murder makes you a murderer.

Based on your incredibly flawed definition of murderer I can now say with extreme confidence that you are very much willing to make the written word say what you want it to say rather than understand what it actually says.

Mathew 5:27
You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultry,'
28. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultry with her in his HEART.
(I think it's pretty safe to assume you can replace adultry with murder and then you are a murderer in your heart.)

Mark, 7:21 For from within, out of the HEART of man, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, MURDERS,
22. thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, and evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
23. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

Good day to you also. God Bless.

Originally posted by awalt08
i realize it's an analogy, thanks. the point i was making is that God has never not allowed someone to make a mistake.

OK, so kindly respond to my point.

Adam and Eve weren't just making one little mistake. It was the worst mistake in human history.

God intervened on countless other occasions: the rebellion of Korah, Mt. Sinai, Noah's flood, etc. etc. etc. Yet, when two people damn billions to hell, he does nothing! Why?

Originally posted by TheSkipper
I thought you said we are born [b]without sin?

QED

Edit: You can find your post where you assure me we are born without sin towards the bottom of page seven.[/b]

We are born into sin. We have not sinned yet when we are born, but we have the desire to sin. And always will while in this fleshly body.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
OK, so kindly respond to my point.

Adam and Eve weren't just making one little mistake. It was the worst mistake in human history.

God intervened on countless other occasions: the rebellion of Korah, Mt. Sinai, Noah's flood, etc. etc. etc. Yet, when two people damn billions to hell, he does nothing! Why?

they didnt damn billions to hell. we each have a chance to accept God's grace.

Originally posted by awalt08
they didnt damn billions to hell. we each have a chance to accept God's grace.

Yes, they did. They gave the human race the knowledge of good and evil, or, to be more precise, the opportunity to do evil. They ensured that we were all born with a 'sin nature'.

As if that wasn't bad enough, God didn't provide the plan of salvation until four thousand (!) years later. Pity the poor saps unfortunate enough to be born in the meantime.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Yes, they did. They gave the human race the knowledge of good and evil, or, to be more precise, the opportunity to do evil. They ensured that we were all born with a 'sin nature'.

As if that wasn't bad enough, God didn't provide the plan of salvation until four thousand (!) years later. Pity the poor saps unfortunate enough to be born in the meantime.

before Jesus people had to make sacrfices to God to pay for their sins

Originally posted by awalt08
before Jesus people had to make sacrfices to God to pay for their sins

Well, Israelites could. The rest weren't told how to do it properly.

Originally posted by KingDavid403
We are born into sin. We have not sinned yet when we are born, but have the desire to sin. And always will while in this fleshly body.

Argh!

You just said the desire to sin is sin!

Look, when you go ask your pastor or theology professor (or whomever you look up to theologically) here is what you need to have him or her explain.

Tell him/her that you met this guy on RHP whose theology is thus:

If God is holding me accountable for the sin of Adam by cursing him and all his ancestors in such a way that we are literally born with sin then God is not omnibenevolent. If God does not hold me accountable for Adam's sin then Paul is wrong when he discusses the idea of original sin in Romans 5:19. Either way, the magic book is wrong.

Now, you come along and claim we are not born with sin which makes Paul wrong, but when I pointed that out you claimed we are born thinking about sin, and then went on to prove that thinking about sin is sin!

Hopefully you can figure this out pretty soon because living with the knowledge that the magic book is wrong could lead to all sorts of realities you are likely unprepared for.