@shavixmir saidOf course there is. That's exactly why I take issue with No1 continually painting Russia as a victim, when the reality is that this is a turf war, and one that started because of Russia's "aggressive expansionism".
You think an international crisis, like this, is one-sided? That there’s no action-reaction going on?
@vivify saidIt didn’t though, did it?
Of course there is. That's exactly why I take issue with No1 continually painting Russia as a victim, when the reality is that this is a turf war, and one that started because of Russia's "aggressive expansionism".
You don’t have to go back to Napoleon or 1914 to see what’s happening. You don’t have to look at the white armies fighting communism. You don’t have to look at the Nazis.
You don’t have to sum up US imperialistic wars (like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq) or Western “interventions” (like overthrowing the Iranian government).
You don’t even have to look at the broken promises about NATO and its ever expanding wings towards Russia.
All you have to do is ask yourself: why?
And if the answer comes back: Putin’s ego or anything like that, you know you can’t be right.
And if the answer comes back: Just Russia wanting to expand or anything like that, you just have to compare what the possible gains are to the losses involved and you can only realise that what you’re stating is absurdly simplistic.
This is an interesting video on the whole situation; with comparisons to Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Yemen.
Where is the outcry?
@vivify saidI get sick of people lying about my position. Never have I claimed Russia is a "victim" or the invasion of Ukraine is justified.
Of course there is. That's exactly why I take issue with No1 continually painting Russia as a victim, when the reality is that this is a turf war, and one that started because of Russia's "aggressive expansionism".
But the simplistic reasoning prevalent on this board ignores the historical realities of the situation. If Western leaders share it, we might well end up in a general war which would very likely go nuclear.
@no1marauder saidWell, hold on a second there.
I get sick of people lying about my position. Never have I claimed Russia is a "victim" or the invasion of Ukraine is justified.
But the simplistic reasoning prevalent on this board ignores the historical realities of the situation. If Western leaders share it, we might well end up in a general war which would very likely go nuclear.
There is no instance of something small, like an assissination, ever triggering something like a world war.
Don't be ridiculous.
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@no1marauder saidAt the beginning, of this thread, you were concerned about people missing the nuance of this invasion.
I get sick of people lying about my position. Never have I claimed Russia is a "victim" or the invasion of Ukraine is justified.
But the simplistic reasoning prevalent on this board ignores the historical realities of the situation. If Western leaders share it, we might well end up in a general war which would very likely go nuclear.
Over time, because of people being so overly simplistic in vilifying Putin, I think you started to overcompensate, and unconsciously started making pro-Russian arguments. Yes, you threw in the occasional "I don't condone Russia", but you, having become known for logical arguments, started using emotionally-laden terms like "aggressive expansion" to describe nations voluntarily requesting membership in an alliance.
That said, here's a simple question: is Ukraine wrong for seeking NATO membership? Do you fault Zelensky for doing so? If no, you can't place any blame on NATO expansion for a sovereign nation exercising it's free will to join an alliance.
@shavixmir saidThanks. I will definitely check out the video and reply with my thoughts on it.
It didn’t though, did it?
You don’t have to go back to Napoleon or 1914 to see what’s happening. You don’t have to look at the white armies fighting communism. You don’t have to look at the Nazis.
You don’t have to sum up US imperialistic wars (like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq) or Western “interventions” (like overthrowing the Iranian government).
You don’t even have to look ...[text shortened]... isons to Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and Yemen.
Where is the outcry?
https://youtu.be/XOGOKI-1Sl0
@vivify saidI find your insistence that if membership in a military alliance is voluntary that alliance cannot be considered "aggressive" strange. Italy, Germany and Japan all voluntarily joined the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis; do you seriously insist that alliance wasn't "aggressive"? It what an alliance does which makes it aggressive or not and NATO's actions over the last 30 years have been aggressive in support of Western neocon policy.
At the beginning, of this thread, you were concerned about people missing the nuance of this invasion.
Over time, because of people being so overly simplistic in vilifying Putin, I think you started to overcompensate, and unconsciously started making pro-Russian arguments. Yes, you threw in the occasional "I don't condone Russia", but you, having become known for logical ...[text shortened]... ce any blame on NATO expansion for a sovereign nation exercising it's free will to join an alliance.
Ukraine and NATO know that Russia considers Ukranian membership in that organization an unacceptable threat to Russian security. Therefore, both have been playing with fire by insisting that the Ukraine will eventually be a member and any Russian objections can be totally ignored. That is reality which the West and the Ukraine have disregarded. It would have been far better for all if the Russian proposals in December had become the basis for serious negotiations rather than being laughed at.
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@no1marauder saidThat Axis powers? Really? An alliance created by brutal regimes for the sole purpose of expanding their domination?
I find your insistence that if membership in a military alliance is voluntary that alliance cannot be considered "aggressive" strange. Italy, Germany and Japan all voluntarily joined the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis; do you seriously insist that alliance wasn't "aggressive"? It what an alliance does which makes it aggressive or not and NATO's actions over the last 30 years have been aggressive in support of Western neocon policy.
NATO was created as a lifeline for weaker nations to defend against a massive, notoriously aggressive superpower. Regardless of what NATO evolved into since then, it's still the only security weaker nations like the Baltic states have against Russia. These are not nations trying to subjugate and take over other countries, despite NATO's history.
Ukraine and NATO know that Russia considers Ukranian membership in that organization an unacceptable threat to Russian security.
That is an incredibly irrelevant point. Every sovereign nation has the right to join whatever alliance they want. Imagine if Israel invaded Palestine because of their alliance with the Arab League; would you care if Israel claimed concern for its safety, using conflict with Arab nations as its excuse?
Let me ask you for the second time: does Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, have the right to request membership in NATO? That, more than anything else, matters the most.
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@vivify saidNations don't have "rights" only individuals do.
That Axis powers? Really? An alliance created by brutal regimes for the sole purpose of expanding their domination?
NATO was created as a lifeline for weaker nations to defend against a massive, notoriously aggressive superpower. Regardless of what NATO evolved into since then, it's still the only security weaker nations like the Baltic states have against Russia. The ...[text shortened]... ion, have the right to request membership in NATO? That, more than anything else, matters the most.
It seems Zelensky is moving toward acceptance of the idea that Ukraine shouldn't push for NATO membership as well as being open to negotiating on the status of Donetsk and Luhansk. https://www.ibtimes.com/nod-russia-ukraine-says-no-longer-insisting-nato-membership-3428691
Maybe this war can end on a realistic negotiated settlement rather than the pipe dream of Russian regime change and/or surrender.
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@no1marauder saidThis is like promising an armed robber you won't call the cops if he leaves.
Nations don't have "rights" only individuals do.
It seems Zelensky is moving toward acceptance of the idea that Ukraine shouldn't push for NATO membership as well as being open to negotiating on the status of Donetsk and Luhansk. https://www.ibtimes.com/nod-russia-ukraine-says-no-longer-insisting-nato-membership-3428691
Maybe this war can end on a realistic negotiated settlement rather than the pipe dream of Russian regime change and/or surrender.
All I know is that if it was America invading another nation, you'd be far less willing to blame the country being attacked for angering the U.S.
@vivify saidMaybe you could give us your idea on how this war could end.
This is like promising an armed robber you won't call the cops if he leaves.
All I know is that if it was America invading another nation, you'd be far less willing to blame the country being attacked for angering the U.S.
I'm sure the white hats will end up with a glorious victory over the bad guys just like in the movies.
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@no1marauder saidUnfortunately I think that is the only way the war is going to end in the near future. The alternative will likely be that Russia just continues to smash Ukraine to bits while accepting heavy casualties themselves and annexing the parts it's wants the most (Luhansk, Donetsks, and the really nice bits along the Black Sea all the way to Moldova). The rest he'll let be after it's been almost entirely destroyed.
Nations don't have "rights" only individuals do.
It seems Zelensky is moving toward acceptance of the idea that Ukraine shouldn't push for NATO membership as well as being open to negotiating on the status of Donetsk and Luhansk. https://www.ibtimes.com/nod-russia-ukraine-says-no-longer-insisting-nato-membership-3428691
Maybe this war can end on a realistic negotiated settlement rather than the pipe dream of Russian regime change and/or surrender.
The question will be if peace is made how is it maintained? Because I'd be surprised if any of us would be surprised if this were to end only to restart again only a few years later after Putin licks his wounds and learns from his mistakes. Granted we'll need to learn from our mistakes too.
I'd also recommend anyone on here have a listen to this interesting discussion by Stephen Kotkin from a few days ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ylaC0MUleZs&fbclid=IwAR3ZlB4__fTgWHybfaG2TWsITojUOABUxZHE6JpXFsDnWhMNUizQNoMMIj4
@no1marauder saidFunny, I was attacked for suggesting Ukraine should surrender like they did in Crimea. Now here you are attacking me for suggesting kneeling to Russia is like bowing to criminals.
Maybe you could give us your idea on how this war could end.
I'm sure the white hats will end up with a glorious victory over the bad guys just like in the movies.
I don't know how this war can end because it's not entirely clear why Putin invaded or what his endgame is. You even started a thread not long ago asking for Putin's possible reasoning. So far, it seems he wants total control over Ukraine's autonomy, which of course, Zelensky will not agree to.
@ullr said
Unfortunately I think that is the only way the war is going to end in the near future. The alternative will likely be that Russia just continues to smash Ukraine to bits while accepting heavy casualties themselves and annexing the parts it's wants the most (Luhansk, Donetsks, and the really nice bits along the Black Sea all the way to Moldova). The rest he'll let be after it's ...[text shortened]... watch?app=desktop&v=ylaC0MUleZs&fbclid=IwAR3ZlB4__fTgWHybfaG2TWsITojUOABUxZHE6JpXFsDnWhMNUizQNoMMIj4
@vivify saidYou haven't followed recent events if you really believe your last sentence. The Russian demands hardly amount to "total control over Ukraine's autonomy."
Funny, I was attacked for suggesting Ukraine should surrender like they did in Crimea. Now here you are attacking me for suggesting kneeling to Russia is like bowing to criminals.
I don't know how this war can end because it's not entirely clear why Putin invaded or what his endgame is. You even started a thread not long ago asking for Putin's possible reasoning. So fa ...[text shortened]... t seems he wants total control over Ukraine's autonomy, which of course, Zelensky will not agree to.