Attack in Ukraine

@kevcvs57 said
It’s simplified because the facts are really simple. Putin invaded Ukraine for no other reason than he has decided he can reassert Russian control over the old soviet empire nations. He is either put back in his box now or when he’s shelling krakow.
I don’t understand why you and No1 thinks do complicated, you complain ( quite rightly ) about some of NATO’s illegal and immo ...[text shortened]... for rather than meddling in far flung parts of the world that nothing to do with the North Atlantic.

Yes. And now answer my post.
What would you do to resolve the situation now.

@shavixmir said
Yes. And now answer my post.
What would you do to resolve the situation now.

I’d keep doing what we’re doing. Supplying Ukraine with best hand held and small system defensive weapons money can buy until Russia has committed enough atrocities for the UN general assembly decides that enough is enough and NATO enforces militarily whatever action the UN agrees on.
It might not come to that if Ukraine can degrade the Russian war machine to the point that his general staff pluck up the courage to tell Putin that it’s time to negotiate with Ukraine.
An agreement on the issue of nato membership for Ukraine is doable but Russia vetoing Ukrainian membership of the EU is not, also Ukrainian acceptance regarding the de facto status of the breakaway republics and Crimea is probably preferable to a long drawn out insurgency.
So what would you do to resolve the situation now apart from letting Putin take back Eastern and Central Europe?

@kevcvs57 said
I’d keep doing what we’re doing. Supplying Ukraine with best hand held and small system defensive weapons money can buy until Russia has committed enough atrocities for the UN general assembly decides that enough is enough and NATO enforces militarily whatever action the UN agrees on.
It might not come to that if Ukraine can degrade the Russian war machine to the point that ...[text shortened]... d you do to resolve the situation now apart from letting Putin take back Eastern and Central Europe?

I'd probably opt for a rapid de-escalation. Get the fighting stopped no matter what.
Agree on set dates for future discussions, etc.
Use the lifting of sanctions as the carrot to nudge the Russians in the desired direction. Talk shop about a completely neutral and independent Ukraine.

Then in the medium-term set Ukraine up as a sort of Slavic Switzerland.
That way preserving the majority of Ukrainian autonomy and at the same time addressing Russia's fears.

The Switzerland model would make it a financial centre for contacts between East and West. What Turkey is between Europe and the Middle East, Ukraine becomes between Russia and Europe. The go-to for diplomacy, cultural exchanges, etc.

Thus guaranteeing Ukraine's independence, because it being independent would benefit Russia as well.

Something like that.

@shavixmir said
I'd probably opt for a rapid de-escalation. Get the fighting stopped no matter what.
Agree on set dates for future discussions, etc.
Use the lifting of sanctions as the carrot to nudge the Russians in the desired direction. Talk shop about a completely neutral and independent Ukraine.

Then in the medium-term set Ukraine up as a sort of Slavic Switzerland.
That way ...[text shortened]... 's independence, because it being independent would benefit Russia as well.

Something like that.

Turkey is in NATO

@shavixmir said
I'd probably opt for a rapid de-escalation. Get the fighting stopped no matter what.
Agree on set dates for future discussions, etc.
Use the lifting of sanctions as the carrot to nudge the Russians in the desired direction. Talk shop about a completely neutral and independent Ukraine.

Then in the medium-term set Ukraine up as a sort of Slavic Switzerland.
That way ...[text shortened]... 's independence, because it being independent would benefit Russia as well.

Something like that.

Yeah all that sounds ok but I don’t think Putin envisages anything like that much autonomy for Ukraine. The NATO thing is a red herring because NATO does not want to be rubbing up against Russia any more than vice versa but how can you or anyone ensure Ukraine’s neutrality when it will be stuck right in between two antagonistic power blocs, I’m not great at geography but isn’t Switzerland off to the side and snuggled away in the mountains.
The only one who can stop the fighting is the guy that started the fighting and unless he pulls back on his more extreme vetos like Ukraine joining the EU which is the overwhelming wish of the Ukrainian people and no existential threat to Russia unless it wants political, economic and civil control of Ukraine.
And all this ignores the stated aim of Putin which is a retraction of nato back to the soviet era line, which is, and will remain unacceptable to the nations involved.
I think a lot of people are ignoring the big game here Putin clearly has an alliance with his fellow authoritarian leader in Beijing but is demanding that the democracies in the west dismantle their tried and trusted alliances. How can that ever be acceptable or not really really stoopid.

@athousandyoung said
Turkey is in NATO

So, that’s not the part I’m using as the analogy, is it? Europe - gateway- Middle East.

See?
Thank you.

@kevcvs57 said
Yeah all that sounds ok but I don’t think Putin envisages anything like that much autonomy for Ukraine. The NATO thing is a red herring because NATO does not want to be rubbing up against Russia any more than vice versa but how can you or anyone ensure Ukraine’s neutrality when it will be stuck right in between two antagonistic power blocs, I’m not great at geography but isn ...[text shortened]... tle their tried and trusted alliances. How can that ever be acceptable or not really really stoopid.

You think. You expect.
What do you actually know? That’s the core of opinions and why opinions are like farts. Everyone has them, but they’re basically hot air which nobody wants.

If you don’t see consensus and you think one party has no eligable stakes, you’re basically condemning Ukraine to rubble and the rest of the planet into financial hardship.

How is that going to play out for you?

Look at it another way:
- what’s the best possible outcome?
- what’s the worst possible outcome?
- which outcome makes the most people happy?
- which outcome leaves the most people dead?
- where do you think there’s a realistic chance of levelling out?

Answer these questions for yourself.
Then compare your position and what you suggest to these answers. And you’ll see why you’re not going to achieve anything constructive.

Another way of viewing international problems like this is to view the whole situation as a system (like they do in relationship therapy and the Scandinavians do with school bullying). And within that system you have various settings you can adjust to create balance.

@shavixmir said
You think. You expect.
What do you actually know? That’s the core of opinions and why opinions are like farts. Everyone has them, but they’re basically hot air which nobody wants.

If you don’t see consensus and you think one party has no eligable stakes, you’re basically condemning Ukraine to rubble and the rest of the planet into financial hardship.

How is that goin ...[text shortened]... school bullying). And within that system you have various settings you can adjust to create balance.

Well this is a thread based on what people think and specifically not what people know.
Common sense tells me Putin needs to be defeated in terms of his wish list in Ukraine, remember when I “thought” Russia was going to invade Ukraine. Knowledge is an accumulation of known facts, one such fact is a letter sent to the US by Putin demanding that NATO exit Eastern and Central Europe.
There’s only three ways this war is going to end short of compromise between Putin and Zelenskiy

My personal favourite: a cabal of generals and wealthy power brokers organise a swan dive from the Kremlin roof for Putin and they then exit Ukraine and organise truly democratic elections in Russia.
Ukrainian insurgents fight the Russian army for years and assassinate any puppet officials that the Kremlin tries to install until a broken and bankrupt Russia slopes back to its hovel of a country.
My leats favourite: NATO finally finds the gonads to crush the Russian forces occupying Ukraine and calls his bluff regarding nuclear Armageddon, which if he wins in Ukraine and goes on to fulfil his promise of re establishing the Russian empire we will have to anyway.
But as I’ve said numerous times the only one who can end this war is the twot that started this war and good luck figuring out what that worm infested brain is thinking at any given time.