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@no1marauder saidSo it seems the question you asked in that thread was answered. Then what is it that Putin wants, according to these "recent events"?
You haven't followed recent events if you really believe your last sentence. The Russian demands hardly amount to "total control over Ukraine's autonomy."
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This article sounds hopeful:
" Israeli officials with direct information about the talks coordinated by Israel said they feel there is a softening of positions on both sides in the last 24 hours, with the Russians saying they only want to demilitarize the Donbas region and Zelensky telling ABC news he has “cooled down” about joining NATO."
"According to Israeli officials, Putin’s proposal is difficult for Zelensky to accept but not as extreme as they anticipated. They said the proposal doesn’t include regime change in Kyiv and allows Ukraine to keep its sovereignty.
What they're saying: A senior Israeli official said Zelensky is at a crossroads and has to choose between two options:
Accept the Russian proposal, which is very tough, but preserve Ukraine’s sovereignty and stop the war.
Reject the proposal and risk a serious escalation in the Russian attack that could end in a catastrophe for Zelensky and for Ukraine."
https://www.axios.com/israel-russia-ukraine-ceasefire-critical-point-5cb18c61-deba-46fb-b637-571614138dd8.html
@vivify saidNobody is blaming Ukraine.
This is like promising an armed robber you won't call the cops if he leaves.
All I know is that if it was America invading another nation, you'd be far less willing to blame the country being attacked for angering the U.S.
What’s being said is that this isn’t a clear cut case of Russia being bad (which it is… it’s invaded another country) and the Ukraine being good (which isn’t actually part of the discussion, because it’s more about NATO expansion and the US flexing its muscles).
It’s about that there are reasons behind Russia’s behaviour. And failure to recognise these will:
A. Not solve the current situation
B. Lead to more such like situations in the future.
C. Make a select group of people very, very rich, over the backs of tax payers and dead children.
What this is about is understanding meta-politics, international relations and historic perspectives.
And I’ve known you in debates for a long time and you are not a naieve person. Same as Kevcvs57. You are not in the same category as the Motts and Metalbrains, who cough up sound bites and simplifications.
You can comprehend what Nr.1 and I are saying (which is basically the same).
And both you and Kev should also realise it’s not pro-Russian propaganda. We’re not painting a Z on our car doors or anything.
Well, I’m not, anyways. My wife would kill me.
@no1marauder saidCrazy stuff when it’s Israeli officials coordinating a compromise… irony at such a fundamental level it brings tears to my bloody ears.
This article sounds hopeful:
" Israeli officials with direct information about the talks coordinated by Israel said they feel there is a softening of positions on both sides in the last 24 hours, with the Russians saying they only want to demilitarize the Donbas region and Zelensky telling ABC news he has “cooled down” about joining NATO."
"According to Israeli offi ...[text shortened]... w.axios.com/israel-russia-ukraine-ceasefire-critical-point-5cb18c61-deba-46fb-b637-571614138dd8.html
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@shavixmir saidI hadn't even thought of that. Bennett is a hard liner who opposes any Palestinian State and has talked of annexing "Judea and Samaria" i.e. the West Bank.
Crazy stuff when it’s Israeli officials coordinating a compromise… irony at such a fundamental level it brings tears to my bloody ears.
@shavixmir said"What’s being said is that this isn’t a clear cut case of Russia being bad (which it is… it’s invaded another country)"
Nobody is blaming Ukraine.
What’s being said is that this isn’t a clear cut case of Russia being bad (which it is… it’s invaded another country) and the Ukraine being good (which isn’t actually part of the discussion, because it’s more about NATO expansion and the US flexing its muscles).
It’s about that there are reasons behind Russia’s behaviour. And failure to reco ...[text shortened]... ’re not painting a Z on our car doors or anything.
Well, I’m not, anyways. My wife would kill me.
My country invaded other countries. NATO invaded Libya. Everybody is bad. I am not over simplifying anything. I am pointing out realities you would rather not face. The west wanted this war and predicted it long ago. They knew Putin would have no choice but to take back Ukraine and did nothing to avoid that war when they could have.
Obama used neo nazis to pull off a coup in Ukraine. That is a fact. Biden is using Ukraine to fight a proxy war against Russia simply because they know they can outspend Russia and weaken it. The US dollar is the world reserve currency. We can outspend any nation.
The problem is that it could lead to nuclear war. People are not talking about that enough.
@metal-brain saidNobody, except Americans, claim that the US is a force for good.
"What’s being said is that this isn’t a clear cut case of Russia being bad (which it is… it’s invaded another country)"
My country invaded other countries. NATO invaded Libya. Everybody is bad. I am not over simplifying anything. I am pointing out realities you would rather not face. The west wanted this war and predicted it long ago. They knew Putin would have no choi ...[text shortened]... ion.
The problem is that it could lead to nuclear war. People are not talking about that enough.
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@shavixmir saidHere's what I agree with:
Nobody is blaming Ukraine.
What’s being said is that this isn’t a clear cut case of Russia being bad (which it is… it’s invaded another country) and the Ukraine being good (which isn’t actually part of the discussion, because it’s more about NATO expansion and the US flexing its muscles).
It’s about that there are reasons behind Russia’s behaviour. And failure to reco ...[text shortened]... ’re not painting a Z on our car doors or anything.
Well, I’m not, anyways. My wife would kill me.
- I agree NATO broke its promise to dissolve NATO, which was an especially big slap in the face since the Warsaw Pact was ended
- I agree NATO has been a warmongering alliance, as evidenced by excursions like Libya
- I agree that allowing NATO membership by Ukraine can rightly be seen as serious provocation to Russia
- I agree that Russian, invasion, while in no way justified, is understandable
Here's my issue: Russia has never stopped being a threat that justifies NATO's existence. Russia has no qualms invading a nation in order to promote it's own interests.
For example, look at when they invaded Afghanistan. Russia did so in order to preserve budding communist interests in that region. This had nothing to do with NATO or Russian security. The same goes for when Russia invaded Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc.
In short, Russia has no qualms about using force to preserve its interests. This fact is always a subtext in Russia's foreign policy. In fact, despite being NATO members, the Baltic states still fear Russian invasion:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/11/baltics-russia-aggression-collective-security-ukraine/
Russia's aggressive actions continually justify the existence of NATO, including after the fall of the USSR.
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@no1marauder said"Talked of"? Please. When push came to shove, he voted AGAINST "expressing sovereignty" (which itself is still far short of "annexation" ) in a circumstance that his vote absolutely would have caused the bill to pass.
I hadn't even thought of that. Bennett is a hard liner who opposes any Palestinian State and has talked of annexing "Judea and Samaria" i.e. the West Bank.
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/knesset-votes-down-west-bank-annexation-bill-675155
@no1marauder saidIsrael is going to annex the West Bank sooner or later for the same reason Putin is obsessed with Kiev.
I hadn't even thought of that. Bennett is a hard liner who opposes any Palestinian State and has talked of annexing "Judea and Samaria" i.e. the West Bank.
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@sh76 saidhttps://www.al-monitor.com/podcasts/2020/06/israels-naftali-bennet-urges-full-annexation-calls-for-turning-s.html
"Talked of"? Please. When push came to shove, he voted AGAINST "expressing sovereignty" (which itself is still far short of "annexation" ) in a circumstance that his vote absolutely would have caused the bill to pass.
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/knesset-votes-down-west-bank-annexation-bill-675155
You were saying?
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@athousandyoung saidNo, it's not. It doesn't have to. It's already starving it to death with the assistance and full approval of both the USA and PutinoSSR.
Israel is going to annex the West Bank sooner or later for the same reason Putin is obsessed with Kiev.
@no1marauder saidSeems like Putin has the same choice but Zekensky should give up NATO membership because he’s not going to get it in the foreseeable future anyway. Recognising the de facto reality in Crimea and the Donbas is also better than having your country turned to rubble but an EU membership veto for Putin should be a no no otherwise what does the phrase sovereignty even mean.
This article sounds hopeful:
" Israeli officials with direct information about the talks coordinated by Israel said they feel there is a softening of positions on both sides in the last 24 hours, with the Russians saying they only want to demilitarize the Donbas region and Zelensky telling ABC news he has “cooled down” about joining NATO."
"According to Israeli offi ...[text shortened]... w.axios.com/israel-russia-ukraine-ceasefire-critical-point-5cb18c61-deba-46fb-b637-571614138dd8.html