1 edit
@metal-brain saidNo you chump I’m picking a side, I’m choosing democracy and sovereignty over despotism and imperialism.
Nope. It is about holding the same standard to every nation. You are endorsing a double standard and that is why you complaining about whataboutism. You think that it is acceptable for the USA and NATO to commit war crimes but unacceptable for Russia to commit war crimes. Same thing with unprovoked invasions.
Your opinion has been influenced by the corporate news media ...[text shortened]... hat Germany invaded Poland. You respond well to propaganda even when it is completely contradictory.
You and No1 are the hypocrites here, like me you condemn the wrongs that NATO have committed but bend over backwards to excuse and facilitate an undemocratic authoritarian regimes blatant invasion of a peaceful democratic neighbour and the slaughter and upheaval it is causing to its civilian population.
Once again for the hypocrites on this forum Ukraine was never getting NATO in the foreseeable future. NATO has never attacked Russia it wouldn’t even risk engaging Russian forces in Syria when they, along with their despotic puppet Assad gassed his own men women and children. NATO expansion and the NATO threat to Russia is a red herring that Putin is using to specifically invade non NATO countries like Georgia and Ukraine. It is imperial expansion pure and simple and this fight is exactly what NATO was formed to fight and we really should have at it.
1 edit
@kevcvs57 saidKev: this fight is exactly what NATO was formed to fight and we really should have at it.
No you chump I’m picking a side, I’m choosing democracy and sovereignty over despotism and imperialism.
You and No1 are the hypocrites here, like me you condemn the wrongs that NATO have committed but bend over backwards to excuse and facilitate an undemocratic authoritarian regimes blatant invasion of a peaceful democratic neighbour and the slaughter and upheaval it is cau ...[text shortened]... and simple and this fight is exactly what NATO was formed to fight and we really should have at it.
So you want to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine?
I already said several times the invasion was unjustified, so you can stop lying about that any time.
1 edit
@kevcvs57 saidThat's assuming Russia winds up in full occupation of the Ukraine, a result I highly doubt will happen. Most likely is that there is a negotiated settlement somewhat along the lines the Guardian article I cited theorizes. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/04/what-would-ukraine-russia-peace-deal-look-like
It will not end, it will be like Afghanistan the Russians will eventually control what’s left of the cities and the Ukrainian insurgency will slip backwards and forwards across its porous border ( the way that the Taliban used the border of Pakistan ) with the latest handheld weaponry that NATO can supply. It will eventually end the way that all three major Afghan incursions ...[text shortened]... overnight.
Please explain how the war could have been avoided and Ukrainian sovereignty preserved.
See the Russian December demand/proposals for how the war could have been avoided if serious negotiations had been started then.
@kevcvs57 saidAye. You think it’s a red herring. And so it must be so.
No you chump I’m picking a side, I’m choosing democracy and sovereignty over despotism and imperialism.
You and No1 are the hypocrites here, like me you condemn the wrongs that NATO have committed but bend over backwards to excuse and facilitate an undemocratic authoritarian regimes blatant invasion of a peaceful democratic neighbour and the slaughter and upheaval it is cau ...[text shortened]... and simple and this fight is exactly what NATO was formed to fight and we really should have at it.
@kevcvs57 said" I’m choosing democracy and sovereignty over despotism and imperialism."
No you chump I’m picking a side, I’m choosing democracy and sovereignty over despotism and imperialism.
You and No1 are the hypocrites here, like me you condemn the wrongs that NATO have committed but bend over backwards to excuse and facilitate an undemocratic authoritarian regimes blatant invasion of a peaceful democratic neighbour and the slaughter and upheaval it is cau ...[text shortened]... and simple and this fight is exactly what NATO was formed to fight and we really should have at it.
The USA is an imperialist country. You are not making a choice against imperialism. That is ridiculous. Putin is not a despot either. He does not have absolute control over Russia. Learn some political science for crying out loud.
" like me you condemn the wrongs that NATO have committed but bend over backwards to excuse and facilitate an undemocratic authoritarian regimes blatant invasion of a peaceful democratic neighbour and the slaughter and upheaval it is causing to its civilian population."
Saudi Arabia is an undemocratic authoritarian regime that went on a blatant invasion of a neighbour and the slaughter and upheaval it is causing to its civilian population. That would be Yemen. Why do you condone that? You are the hypocrite here.
@kevcvs57 saidThe Ukraine isn't the most shining example of a "democracy".
No you chump I’m picking a side, I’m choosing democracy and sovereignty over despotism and imperialism.
You and No1 are the hypocrites here, like me you condemn the wrongs that NATO have committed but bend over backwards to excuse and facilitate an undemocratic authoritarian regimes blatant invasion of a peaceful democratic neighbour and the slaughter and upheaval it is cau ...[text shortened]... and simple and this fight is exactly what NATO was formed to fight and we really should have at it.
It illegally overthrew an elected President in 2014.
It currently has under arrest the Chairman of the largest opposition party.
It shut down opposition newspapers over a year ago.
It is increasing the powers of an internal law enforcement agency to include levels of surveillance that Human Rights Watch has condemned.
It recently put into effect a law discriminating against the Russian language and requiring newsstands to have at least 50% of their papers be in Ukrainian only. This has also been criticized by HRW and would seem to make the country ineligible for EU membership (which require " respect for and protection of minorities;" https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/conditions-membership_en).
One does not have to over-exaggerate the qualities of the Ukrainian government to oppose the Russian invasion though it does serve the simplistic "white hat" "black hat" narrative you seem wedded to.
1 edit
@no1marauder saidNo I don’t want to but Putin is not going to give NATO an option I’d rather beat his forces back from Poland’s border than have to fight him in Poland when his forces come up with an excuse to cross that border.
Kev: this fight is exactly what NATO was formed to fight and we really should have at it.
So you want to go to war with Russia over the Ukraine?
I already said several times the invasion was unjustified, so you can stop lying about that any time.
They have already conducted missile strikes 20 kilometres from the Polish border and Putin has warned that it sees arms convoys ‘destined’ for Ukraine as legitimate targets.
Your also arguing for the dismantling of NATO you might as well be operating straight from the Kremlin. Saying you condemn the invasion means nothing you oppose the active defence of Ukraine in the face of this totally unwarranted invasion of a sovereign nation and spend most of your posts on this subject wringing your hands about past NATO wrongs. Tell me when NATO invaded Iraq in the 2nd Iraq war did you harp on about the invasion of Afghanistan by Russia? Or it’s atrocities in Chechnya. Im sure like me you restricted your criticism to the US for invading Iraq. So why the double standard? Why are you intent on muddying the water on this one? There is only one perpetrator here and it’s Putin and whether you like it or not there is only one alliance on the planet that is going to stop his further expansionist adventures.
@no1marauder saidYou should have a look at what Russia has done in terms of a free press and the murder and arrest of Putin’s political opposition.
The Ukraine isn't the most shining example of a "democracy".
It illegally overthrew an elected President in 2014.
It currently has under arrest the Chairman of the largest opposition party.
It shut down opposition newspapers over a year ago.
It is increasing the powers of an internal law enforcement agency to include levels of surveillance that Human Rights W ...[text shortened]... n invasion though it does serve the simplistic "white hat" "black hat" narrative you seem wedded to.
It doesn’t have to be a shining example of democracy, not sure any country can reach that bar. But it is a functioning democracy and it is intent on joining the EU so it would have to up its game in order to achieve membership. Which is probably why Putin has made Ukraine not joining the EU one of the conditions for peace, the last thing Putin wants is a ‘shining example of democracy’ on his doorstep and that is the only threat that Ukraine represents to the regime in Moscow snd it poses no threat to the Russian people at all.
@kevcvs57 saidBecause, though you want to keep ignoring it, NATO adventurism greatly contributed to the crisis in Eastern Europe that led to the invasion. And stubborn ignorance like you display is going to result in WWIII IF Western leaders take the measures that you desire.
No I don’t want to but Putin is not going to give NATO an option I’d rather beat his forces back from Poland’s border than have to fight him in Poland when his forces come up with an excuse to cross that border.
They have already conducted missile strikes 20 kilometres from the Polish border and Putin has warned that it sees arms convoys ‘destined’ for Ukraine as legitimate ...[text shortened]... there is only one alliance on the planet that is going to stop his further expansionist adventures.
Russia's security concerns should have been addressed long before the present crisis. Continued refusal to see this as anything but a "bad guy" trying to conquer the world scenario is childish.
@kevcvs57 saidGod, you're still playing that card?
You should have a look at what Russia has done in terms of a free press and the murder and arrest of Putin’s political opposition.
It doesn’t have to be a shining example of democracy, not sure any country can reach that bar. But it is a functioning democracy and it is intent on joining the EU so it would have to up its game in order to achieve membership. Which is probably ...[text shortened]... that Ukraine represents to the regime in Moscow snd it poses no threat to the Russian people at all.
Grow up; Ukraine is no shining example of democracy or economic success that the Russian People are salivating to emulate.
@no1marauder saidNow you are just telling blatant lies and they are not even your lies you have plagiarised them straight from the Kremlin. Shame on you.
Because, though you want to keep ignoring it, NATO adventurism greatly contributed to the crisis in Eastern Europe that led to the invasion. And stubborn ignorance like you display is going to result in WWIII IF Western leaders take the measures that you desire.
Russia's security concerns should have been addressed long before the present crisis. Continued refusal to see this as anything but a "bad guy" trying to conquer the world scenario is childish.
Whether you like it or not sovereign democratic nations in Europe can aspire to join any alliance or economic bloc that they see fit.
The fact you haven’t got the moral compass to support those choices whilst demanding your own democracy be protected is not an argument it’s a distinct lack of one.
3 edits
@sonhouse saidNot the same thing at all. First of all Russia acquired that territory through exploration and maybe some imperialism and conquest. They’re not indigenous to it. Second they willingly sold it to the US for geostrategy reasons (they didn’t want the British Empire to take it from them).
@AThousandYoung
Russia wants Alaska back too so we better send a few hundred thousand troops up there too.
The indigenous Alaskan people are few in number and politically and technologically weak, and are opposing the USA if they tried anything and so they can be ignored.
1 edit
@kevcvs57 saidThe same can be said of you: why do you keep pushing this simplified Western narrative?
Now you are just telling blatant lies and they are not even your lies you have plagiarised them straight from the Kremlin. Shame on you.
Whether you like it or not sovereign democratic nations in Europe can aspire to join any alliance or economic bloc that they see fit.
The fact you haven’t got the moral compass to support those choices whilst demanding your own democracy be protected is not an argument it’s a distinct lack of one.
Let’s take a step back. There is common ground:
- the invasion of Ukraine is undesirable (nobody agrees with Russia’s decision on this).
- a way has to be found to bring a cease-fire into place.
- direct NATO involvement will escalate the conflict in a very destructive way.
- sanctions are generally a long term strategy (like a siege, to put it in military terms).
So, seeing as it’s not constructive to keep on pointing fingers and labelling each other as simpletons and puppets, what are the options?
Yes. The name calling and friction is all part of feeling helpless to change anything. It’s what happens when one loses site of the boundaries between the circle of influence and the circle of interest.
To be clear: we all here are very much in the latter circle. And that is frustrating when so much is going on. A certain level of distance to the subject and acceptance goes a long way.
But if you could do something on the larger political scale, what would you do?
The priorities:
- you want to protect civilian lives
- you want to protect economies
- you want normality to return as fast as possible
- you want the war to stop
- you need to house refugees (millions) and/or repatriate them within the foreseeable future
What do you think should be done?
And I’m pretty sure name-calling won’t achieve any of those goals.
@shavixmir saidIt’s simplified because the facts are really simple. Putin invaded Ukraine for no other reason than he has decided he can reassert Russian control over the old soviet empire nations. He is either put back in his box now or when he’s shelling krakow.
The same can be said of you: why do you keep pushing this simplified Western narrative?
Let’s take a step back. There is common ground:
- the invasion of Ukraine is undesirable (nobody agrees with Russia’s decision on this).
- a way has to be found to bring a cease-fire into place.
- direct NATO involvement will escalate the conflict in a very destructive way.
- sanc ...[text shortened]... t do you think should be done?
And I’m pretty sure name-calling won’t achieve any of those goals.
I don’t understand why you and No1 thinks do complicated, you complain ( quite rightly ) about some of NATO’s illegal and immoral wars as if to justify what Putin is doing to a non NATO country. This is one war that NATO could fight without any moral ambiguity, it’s about standing up to a powerful aggressor. It’s what NATO was formed for rather than meddling in far flung parts of the world that nothing to do with the North Atlantic.