Debates Forum

Debates Forum

  1. SubscriberWajoma
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    26 May '15 20:18
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    That's how Randian "philosophy" works.
    I'm not familiar where Rand said this;

    Equal people aren't free.
    Free people aren't equal.

    Do you have some reference?

    You disagree with the statement? Do you believe the opposite maybe?
  2. The Catbird's Seat
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    26 May '15 21:43
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    do you think you're impressing anyone by spouting fortune cookie nonsense while ignoring/missing the point?
    Do you think you're impressing people?
  3. The Catbird's Seat
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    26 May '15 21:44
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "Liberalism is just an old and tired movement with no real new ideas or tactics."
    as opposed to what? conservatism? the philosophy that by definition is opposed to new things?

    "Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. "
    that's the definition of liberalism. do you consider liberty and equality tired? or you're just blowing hot air again?
    Liberty and equality are not compatible.
  4. Joined
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    26 May '15 23:08
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Liberty and equality are not compatible.
    perhaps you care to elaborate. support your claim

    or you like fortune cookie nonsense as well.
  5. The Catbird's Seat
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    27 May '15 00:32
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    perhaps you care to elaborate. support your claim

    or you like fortune cookie nonsense as well.
    Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why this isn't true.
  6. SubscriberWajoma
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    27 May '15 01:302 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    perhaps you care to elaborate. support your claim

    or you like fortune cookie nonsense as well.
    A very quick lesson, a thought exercise only, with doling out money the question would be "whose money?" but as an example:

    If you were to give 1000 people a $1 million each, thus making them equal in wealth, 24hrs later the differences would be appearing, some would 'invest' in a drug spree, others might take a vacation or gamble it, some might invest, buy a home, build a business, take some education, use it as equity to borrow a larger sum.

    A year later the differences between top and bottom would be vast. They would no longer be equal.

    So in order to keep them equal you would need to assign how each person spent their money, they would no longer be free to make their own decisions. How much they spent on their own health care, their own education, their own retirement fund, their own charitable interests, their own family. Their wealth would no longer be theirs with you controlling it.

    Advocates of a free society know that some people are going to mess up their life, it's no utopian fantasy, and we don't see that flippant accusation thrown about by the likes of KN and marauder so much these days.

    But if we're talking equal rights. i.e. the equal right of all to live free from force, threats of force and fraud then we're talking equality and liberty. Given your record here as a busybody and control freak it is unlikely this is what you meant by 'liberty'.
  7. Joined
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    27 May '15 09:30
    Originally posted by normbenign
    Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why this isn't true.
    you made the claim first without any support. why must I bother to prove why it isn't true ?
    even if i ignore the rules of debate and bother, how can i do that without knowing what you mean by equality? by freedom?
  8. SubscriberWajoma
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    27 May '15 09:31
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    you made the claim first without any support. why must I bother to prove why it isn't true ?
    even if i ignore the rules of debate and bother, how can i do that without knowing what you mean by equality? by freedom?
    Freedom is the absence of force.
  9. Joined
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    27 May '15 09:321 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    A very quick lesson, a thought exercise only, with doling out money the question would be "whose money?" but as an example:

    If you were to give 1000 people a $1 million each, thus making them equal in wealth, 24hrs later the differences would be appearing, some would 'invest' in a drug spree, others might take a vacation or gamble it, some might invest, bu ...[text shortened]... record here as a busybody and control freak it is unlikely this is what you meant by 'liberty'.
    now were getting somewhere. now i know what you think we, liberals, believe equality means.
    and it's stupid.

    only the most marxist utopist believe that everyone should be equal in wealth. i have no idea where you build your arguments from but it's giving me a head ache
  10. Joined
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    27 May '15 09:421 edit
    Originally posted by Wajoma
    Freedom is the absence of force.
    nonsense

    freedom is the absence of unjustified force. where unjustified is a complex term. certainly not possible to explain in the one sentence, fortune cookie/inspirational quotes you are so fond of.


    no try and explain equality as well
  11. Joined
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    27 May '15 10:49
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "Liberalism is just an old and tired movement with no real new ideas or tactics."
    as opposed to what? conservatism? the philosophy that by definition is opposed to new things?

    "Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. "
    that's the definition of liberalism. do you consider liberty and equality tired? or you're just blowing hot air again?
    Liberty?

    It seems more and more liberty is taken from us all in the pretense of making us "equal".
  12. Joined
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    27 May '15 13:18
    Originally posted by whodey
    Liberty?

    It seems more and more liberty is taken from us all in the pretense of making us "equal".
    what liberties have you lost?

    really.
  13. Joined
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    27 May '15 15:281 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    what liberties have you lost?

    really.
    When you take a person's income you are taking away liberty.

    Doing things costs money. The money you take from a person who has limited resources restricts even greater the things that the person can do.

    Then you have the liberty of freedom of association. People like you argue that you can have freedom association as long as you don't work. Once again you are control people by the need for money to survive.

    People like you are such hypocrites who are unwilling to even acknowledge the evil of their beliefs.
  14. Joined
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    28 May '15 00:45
    Originally posted by Eladar
    When you take a person's income you are taking away liberty.

    Doing things costs money. The money you take from a person who has limited resources restricts even greater the things that the person can do.

    Then you have the liberty of freedom of association. People like you argue that you can have freedom association as long as you don't work. Once aga ...[text shortened]... le like you are such hypocrites who are unwilling to even acknowledge the evil of their beliefs.
    "When you take a person's income you are taking away liberty."
    how about the liberty to not get mugged? do you like that? perhaps the police should protect that liberty of yours for free.
    how about the liberty to not burn in your home. the firemen should just wait by your house in case it catches fire and put it out for free.

    you drive on public roads
    you went to a public school
    you are protected by a military/police department/fire department
    and many more

    that crap costs money. money comes from taxes. you pay taxes.


    "Then you have the liberty of freedom of association. People like you argue that you can have freedom association as long as you don't work. Once again you are control people by the need for money to survive."
    i have no ideea what you are trying to communicate here. i will just assume you consider people on welfare and unemployment lazy. which is stupid

    "People like you are such hypocrites who are unwilling to even acknowledge the evil of their beliefs."
    huh? socialism is evil, huh.
    speaking of hypocrisy, i am sure you aren't one. i bet you are an atheist . because it would take huge freakin balls to call evil the notion that we should help the poorest of us, and still call yourself christian.
  15. Joined
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    28 May '15 18:27
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "When you take a person's income you are taking away liberty."
    how about the liberty to not get mugged? do you like that? perhaps the police should protect that liberty of yours for free.
    how about the liberty to not burn in your home. the firemen should just wait by your house in case it catches fire and put it out for free.

    you drive on public road ...[text shortened]... o call evil the notion that we should help the poorest of us, and still call yourself christian.
    Taking money to give to other people is not the same thing as paying for things like roads, police and teachers.

    Remember, we are talking about liberal social nets here, not basic government function. Only a person who is totally screwed up in the head can't make the distinction.
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