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Debates Forum

  1. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    03 Feb '17 10:47 / 1 edit
    Nothing Trump is doing is radically unfamiliar to Democratic administrations. The raging arguments between Democrats and Republicans on these forums are laughable for their lack of awareness of this. There is a reason why so many voters declined to support Clinton and there are good reasons to envisage that she proposed very similar foreign policies in particular, not too distant from Steve Bannon's ravings. But take this for a statement of the problem:

    "The Democratic Party has actively participated or remained complicit in several of the policies and plans now being pushed by the Trump administration, despite their rhetoric conveying a blanket opposition.

    On January 27, Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer called Trump’s plan to build a wall on the U.S.-Mexico border, “divisive and unnecessary.” But in 2006 Obama, Clinton, Biden, Schumer and 20 other Democrats in the Senate at the time voted in favor of the Secure Fence Act, which called for a physical barrier to be built along the U.S.-Mexico border. Bernie Sanders, who was a Representative in the House at the time, voted against the bill. The fence was never completed due to Congress failing to provide the necessary funding. President Trump’s recent executive order to build a physical wall along the U.S.-Mexico border cites that the order falls under the 2006 Secure Fence Act that Bush signed into law.

    The same executive order expands the government’s deportation priorities, which President Obama helped set in motion by deporting more people than any other president—2.5 million between 2009 and 2015. Due to his record on immigration, immigrant activists have dubbed Obama the “deporter-in-chief.” Trump has begun stripping sanctuary cities of federal funding if they fail to comply with his proposed immigration limitations. Many, like Boulder, Colorado, declared themselves “sanctuary cities” in protest to the Obama administration’s immigration enforcement efforts.

    Establishment Democrats have acted outraged over Trump’s plans to develop a Muslim registry, but their criticisms were nowhere to be found when Bush and Obama had one in place between 2001 to 2011. Establishment Democrats were at the very least complicit and at most active proponents in stigmatizing the Muslim community as suspects worthy of constant surveillance. Several tech firms refused to rule out participating in creating a national Muslim registry with the Trump administration when asked recently by The Intercept. “Terror lists” that have been developed by different government organizations—ranging from the No-Fly List to the Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment list and FBI database—have been criticized for including people for frivolous reasons, especially citing one instance in which a 7-month old baby was listed.

    Republicans have threatened to use their majorities in both houses of Congress to repeal Obamacare, an act that will potentially leave several millions of people uninsured and cause premiums to skyrocket. Obamacare’s initial goal was to create a universal healthcare system in the United States, but Democrats, led by a proposal from Sen. Charles Schumer in 2009, made concessions for the health insurance industry, making Obamacare more of a socialized program for insurance companies and leaving over 30 million people uninsured. These concessions made Obamacare more vulnerable than if Democrats mustered the political will to create a program that prioritized health coverage for the American people over the interests of the health insurance industry.

    In order to develop serious opposition against Trump’s Presidency and the Republican-dominated Congress, Democrats need to face how their political cowardice and questionable policies enabled Trump’s ascendancy. Donald Trump is a consequence of a political establishment obsessed and ingrained with wealthy and corporate influence. Though the political rhetoric and theatrics reveal a highly polarized political climate between Democrats and Republicans, both political parties have been subject to dysfunction and policy concessions that have disillusioned voters. The ensuing resentment for the establishment paved the way for an outsider like Trump to win, with help from the DNC and Clinton campaign who used the press to elevate Trump as a “Pied-Piper” candidate to provide Hillary Clinton with an easily beatable general election opponent. Understanding the Democratic Party’s past wrongdoings is vital to develop a recovery plan, but so far the Democrats continue to remain entangled in the policies that they claim to oppose from the Trump Administration."

    http://observer.com/2017/01/democrat-party-trump-administration-immigration-policies/
  2. 03 Feb '17 10:52 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Nothing Trump is doing is radically unfamiliar to Democratic administrations. The raging arguments between Democrats and Republicans on these forums are laughable for their lack of awareness of this. There is a reason why so many voters declined to support Clinton and there are good reasons to envisage that she proposed very similar foreign policies in part ...[text shortened]... ation."

    http://observer.com/2017/01/democrat-party-trump-administration-immigration-policies/
    I agree with this. The democrats have also been complicit ( albeit less publicly) in the targeting of Muslims. To pretend otherwise now that they have lost the presidency would be disingenuous.

    To be honest I'm very annoyed with the democratic party in general over their handling of the election.

    American politics is skewed to the right. The democrats are centre and the GOP is right, but in the UK Labour is left and Conservative s are centre right.
  3. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    03 Feb '17 13:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Nothing Trump is doing is radically unfamiliar to Democratic administrations. The raging arguments between Democrats and Republicans on these forums are laughable for their lack of awareness of this. There is a reason why so many voters declined to support Clinton and there are good reasons to envisage that she proposed very similar foreign policies in part ...[text shortened]... ation."

    http://observer.com/2017/01/democrat-party-trump-administration-immigration-policies/
    So you think President Hillary Clinton would have issued essentially the same executive orders as President Trump did?

    BTW, the title of the thread is backwards; there'd be no Bernie Sanders (politically speaking) except for the US Left.
  4. Standard member sh76
    Civis Americanus Sum
    03 Feb '17 13:37
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Nothing Trump is doing is radically unfamiliar to Democratic administrations. The raging arguments between Democrats and Republicans on these forums are laughable for their lack of awareness of this. There is a reason why so many voters declined to support Clinton and there are good reasons to envisage that she proposed very similar foreign policies in part ...[text shortened]... ation."

    http://observer.com/2017/01/democrat-party-trump-administration-immigration-policies/
    Yes, I've also seen a lot of this cherry-picking of decades-old statements and actions from individual Democrats that are kinda, sorta somewhat similar to stuff Trump is doing cited by Republicans (to show that Dems are hypocrites), Democrats (to show that they're willing to compromise) and left wingers (to show that the Dems are sell-outs).

    Judging a politician by anything other than they're current positions on the issues is silly. Politicians change their minds all the time, sometimes out of expedience and sometimes out of conviction. If Schumer says he's against the wall now, then bringing up a 2006 vote in favor of a "secure fence" is pointless. Robert Byrd and George Wallace enjoyed high black support later in their careers in spite of initially being segregationists.
  5. Standard member vivify
    rain
    03 Feb '17 13:51 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Nothing Trump is doing is radically unfamiliar to Democratic administrations. The raging arguments between Democrats and Republicans on these forums are laughable for their lack of awareness of this. There is a reason why so many voters declined to support Clinton and there are good reasons to envisage that she proposed very similar foreign policies in part ...[text shortened]... ation."

    http://observer.com/2017/01/democrat-party-trump-administration-immigration-policies/
    Normally, I agree with your posts criticizing the U.S. However, this article has some problems.

    First, the whole "Democrats said nothing when Obama had one in place in 2011"....

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/12/obama-just-made-it-harder-for-trump-to-create-a-muslim-registry/511505/

    "the remaining entry and exit program was suspended in 2011, when DHS removed all 25 countries from the list of required participants."

    So what is there for Democrats to complain about, especially since Obama has since tried to remove all remnants of the program completely?

    Regarding Obama's deportations, I agree with the article.

    As far as the border fence, there's a major difference from Trump's wall:
    a) The fence wasn't being fueled by the racist rhetoric such as Mexicans are rapists and drug abusers
    b) There were no plans to make "Mexico pay for it".
    c) A wall (especially of Trump's specifications) is FAR more expensive than a fence

    Personally, I have no problem with borders being more secure, and I doubt most liberals do. The big difference is how and why Trump is doing so.

    The article spreads some untrue ideas, and serves more as anti-U.S. propaganda. It's essentially saying "even the side that claims to be the more reasonable and enlightened side is horrible".

    It's clear that you enjoy bashing the U.S. But when you promote careless reasoning in your arguments that makes your cause seem motivated by bias rather than rationale.
  6. Subscriber kmax87
    You've got Kevin
    03 Feb '17 14:23
    Originally posted by sh76
    .....Judging a politician by anything other than they're current positions on the issues is silly. Politicians change their minds all the time, sometimes out of expedience and sometimes out of conviction.
    I think the main reason there's pushback is the sheer pace of Trump's rough and ready agenda. If you were expecting fine wine and flowers, you'll be waiting a long time. No he's all he ever said he was going to do and seems happy to throw it all up into the air and keep juggling to own the agenda and the news cycle.

    Whether he will get away with it, who knows. While his all in bullying style may work in real estate development, in the game of regional and international diplomacy he seems totally out of his depth, unable to signal friends appropriately and do the hard work in carefully cultivating consensus within accepted norms of perfectly calibrated and nuanced state speech and craft. The US cannot do it alone and the notion that it can stride the globe like a maverick, a loose cannon of sorts unencumbered by any sense of mutual obligation or respect for long held diplomatic traditions and communication exchange rituals is a flawed proposition, one that will surely bite if all that Donald thinks to woo another nation is to pop a tic tac and expect an opportunity for a beneficial grope.
  7. 03 Feb '17 14:25
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Nothing Trump is doing is radically unfamiliar to Democratic administrations. The raging arguments between Democrats and Republicans on these forums are laughable for their lack of awareness of this. There is a reason why so many voters declined to support Clinton and there are good reasons to envisage that she proposed very similar foreign policies in part ...[text shortened]... ation."

    http://observer.com/2017/01/democrat-party-trump-administration-immigration-policies/
    There is no left or right dingleberry.

    All there is, is a group of politicians who seek to further empower the Federal government over every aspect of our lives.
  8. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    03 Feb '17 14:30
    Originally posted by whodey
    There is no left or right dingleberry.

    All there is, is a group of politicians who seek to further empower the Federal government over every aspect of our lives.
    And they are, and have always been, called Conservatives.

    The only difference now is that they want to give Corporations DIRECT control over us.
  9. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    03 Feb '17 14:55
    Originally posted by vivify
    Normally, I agree with your posts criticizing the U.S. However, this article has some problems.

    First, the whole "Democrats said nothing when Obama had one in place in 2011"....

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/12/obama-just-made-it-harder-for-trump-to-create-a-muslim-registry/511505/

    "the remaining entry and exit program was susp ...[text shortened]... reasoning in your arguments that makes your cause seem motivated by bias rather than rationale.
    It's clear that you enjoy bashing the U.S. But when you promote careless reasoning in your arguments that makes your cause seem motivated by bias rather than rationale

    If you think I just enjoy bashing the US for the sake of it you are misunderstanding the context. What I enjoy is confronting the political opinions argued on this forum by Americans. It is the excessive nationalism and the blind conformity to a set of ideological mantras that merits endless attack. My campaign is political and ideological in its nature.

    But ffs Americans are such a fkg herd of sheep politically it makes one weep.

    I appreciate the complaint that the original post is based on an overstatement of the case, which is of course rhetorical in its nature. The point is not that Democrats universally conform the the same positions as Tump but rather that their actual positions are not suffiiciently distinct. The point is precisely that Trump can point to so many precedents and analogies. That is shameful and says something important about the Democratic record.

    And again, let's not romanticise the Democrat record here. If Trump were ever to emulate Bill Clinton's track record on mass incarceration, we would see some sparks popping. Under Clinton, NAFTA wiped out huge numbers of jobs in both the USA and - more critically here - in Mexico, whose native industries and agriculture (especilly) could not cope with US competition, and THAT produced increases in economic migration which Clinton proceeded to meet with repressive measures. Migration is a product of exploitation by American corporations - the US causes it there, just as it does in countries like Iraq and Syria and ... And the Democrats are NOT different to the Republicans on these issues, which are arguably the big ones. .

    All the evidence I see says that Democrats are unwilling to attack right wing ideology head on, and instead are prepared to adopt right wing policies in the hope of placating what they perceive to be a deeply right wing population / electorate. Well this time Trump dd it better. What they need to learn, and Sanders showed, is that there is a constituency out there for intelligent left wing politics which the Democrats are determined never to service.
  10. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    03 Feb '17 15:14
    Originally posted by finnegan
    It's clear that you enjoy bashing the U.S. But when you promote careless reasoning in your arguments that makes your cause seem motivated by bias rather than rationale

    If you think I just enjoy bashing the US for the sake of it you are misunderstanding the context. What I enjoy is confronting the political opinions argued on this forum by ...[text shortened]... ut there for intelligent left wing politics which the Democrats are determined never to service.
    You confuse and confound me.

    You are talking about a nation of people who are collectively leaning right now, because they've been hornswaggled for decades by the extreme right, and you are attacking the few in this country who are trying like hell (against the current, btw) to right the ship? And because they're not righting the ship fast enough?? I imagine you'd do better to support them, rather than attacking them, as if you were just another zombified conservative troll.
  11. 03 Feb '17 15:20
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    You confuse and confound me.

    You are talking about a nation of people who are collectively leaning right now, because they've been hornswaggled for decades by the extreme right, and you are attacking the few in this country who are trying like hell (against the current, btw) to right the ship? And because they're not righting the ship fast enough ...[text shortened]... port them, rather than attacking them, as if you were just another zombified conservative troll.
    He is simply pointing out that not being republicans doesn't wipe their slate clean, and that they have a history of discriminating against Muslims too.
  12. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    03 Feb '17 15:57
    Originally posted by A****aka (seriously man, I've had to re-do this reply three times now)
    He is simply pointing out that not being republicans doesn't wipe their slate clean, and that they have a history of discriminating against Muslims too.
    Come on, it is NOTHING like what we're seeing from the right.


    What he's bitching about is that Democrats aren't liberal enough. I've said this for years, but the system must be changed from within. Support the party closest to your ideals and vote. Better yet, become a precinct chairman and start effecting real change. Democracy is not a spectator sport.
  13. Standard member finnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
    03 Feb '17 17:08
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    You confuse and confound me.

    You are talking about a nation of people who are collectively leaning right now, because they've been hornswaggled for decades by the extreme right, and you are attacking the few in this country who are trying like hell (against the current, btw) to right the ship? And because they're not righting the ship fast enough ...[text shortened]... port them, rather than attacking them, as if you were just another zombified conservative troll.
    You confuse and confound me.

    I think you are already confused.

    Yes of course I am attacking what I see as the Third Way politics which has been deployed both in the US (starting with Clinton) and the UK (with Blair) to destroy the Left. It is necessary to atttack people like Hillary Clinton who proposed to persist in that disastrous and damaging line of politics. It is necessary to point out that that charming and highly educated, very proficient politican Obama was way off to the right of the spectrum, contrary to popular delusions in American media.

    When you start to identify political principles that connect with the lives of ordinary people again then maybe you can expect to work a way past this current phase of fascist domination, but it seems pretty extensive and it did not come from Trump - it made him possible.
  14. 03 Feb '17 17:40
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Come on, it is NOTHING like what we're seeing from the right.


    What he's bitching about is that Democrats aren't liberal enough. I've said this for years, but the system must be changed from within. Support the party closest to your ideals and vote. Better yet, become a precinct chairman and start effecting real change. Democracy is not a spectator sport.
    Bernie Sanders would have been real change. Pity they rigged it against him.
  15. 03 Feb '17 19:19
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/31/anti-trump-resistance-fail-ditch-establishment-democrats

    "The anti-Trump resistance will fail if we don't ditch establishment Democrats."
    --Bhaskar Sunkara

    "For years, myself and others posed a divide in the Democratic party that seemingly
    existed only notionally: a gap between social democratic demands at the base of the
    party and technocratic neoliberalism at the top of it. The Sanders campaign made that
    divide more real and tangible – it stirred a rabid opposition to Clintonism within millions of
    people, many of them politicized for the first time, and more importantly presented an
    alternative politics."