Originally posted by shortcircuityes you can judge but who has the right to punish people and put them in a filthy prison?
You are wrong there big boy. But you have the right to your opinion. I am not sure what one person has the right to judge you in your opinion, but you are big time wrong there too. You are going to be judged by a huge number of people each and every day of your life. They are going to judge you just as you judge others. Now, if you are referring to God ...[text shortened]... the right, but He is not a human (and this is a topic for another thread in a different forum).
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomdon't do the crime if you don't want the time....pretty simple stuff actually. It is a PUNISHMENT, not a country club invitation. They should make it worse than it is as a further deterrent, but some people will never get it. Life is hard, prison is HELL.
yes you can judge but who has the right to punish people and put them in a filthy prison?
Originally posted by raow2OK, you seem to have difficulty processing simple sentences, so I will repeat a couple things for you from my post that you responded to:
i din't bang my head you tart. Anyway i know what happend cause ambulance crew made the complaint against the officer.
It is good to hear that you are getting better.
Seriously, if your version of the events are accurate, then you have a legitimate complaint against one Officer, not all Cops.
Try to keep it all in context, if you can.
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveSo, now your "well know FACT" is nothing more than a generally accepted belief among your social circle? And the Judges and Magistrates are in on the vast conspiracy as well? It all makes sense now; none of these people are real human beings anyway, with families, friends, neighbors etc that they actually care about. You might find it interesting to know that in most Police agencies, dishonesty is grounds for termination...precisely because of the fact that a documented history of dishonesty will forever subject your testimony to being of questionable veracity, and therefore useless for the purposes of prosecution. And crooked Cops are ostracized by their peers; we know all too well that the few of them make the majority of us look bad to the general population. Then again, I doubt that any of this is of interest to you. You are much more comfortable in your own reality.
ok, I'll clarify that: it's a well known FACT amongst everyone I know...although the judges and magistrates also know, they pretend not to.
The police officers that I have known over the years have had no qualms about admitting their willingness to be economical with the truth to secure a conviction.
Originally posted by BLReidI know that a significant number of police lie from several pieces of direct and indirect evidence.
In any way that could be reasonably construed as a specific statement, not a general one. It really isn't difficult. I'll check back later, I have to get a nap before work.
1) There have been several high-profile cases in the UK in which the police have been proven beyond reasonable doubt that they lied, altered witness statements and used brute force to gain 'confessions'. Amazingly, the majority of these police officers have not been charged with perjury and assault. They have been 'pensioned-off.' I suggest you Google The Guildford Four and find out what happened to a 16-year old girl and 3 of her male friends.
2) Ex-police officer acquaintences of mine have admitted and confirmed to me what really happens on a Friday and Saturday night. A significant number of young policer officers get a thrill from finding any excuse to intimidate, kick down doors, make sarcastc comments, be rude etc all under the protection of a corrupt legal system. A major problem appears to be young male police officers wishing to show off in front of their young female colleagues.
3) In my experience, many police officers lack an ability to be open minded and decide for themselves to act as judge, jury and executioner. In their zeal to get a conviction, because of their mistaken belief that the person is guilty, they are quite willing to commit perjury in the belief that they are doing nothing wrong.
4) Legitimate complaints against the Police are more often than not met with a conspiracy of lies and denials and remarkably similar stories from the 4 or 5 arresting Police Officers. Too similar, in fact.
5) Complaints against the police are investigated by the police themselves. It does not take much intelligence to realise exactly whose side the investigating police officer will take.
6) Solicitors (lawyers) have confirmed to me that police officers lie.
7) I have personal experience of perjury, lies and collusion by several police officers.
8) Common sense and observation tells me that the police lie to get convictions and to protect themselves. For example, if someone makes a legitimate complaint against an officer, then that officer will lie to keep his / her job. His / her colleagues will do likewise to help their kind. It happens in other professions, ergo it happens in the police force.
Originally posted by BLReidIt's no vast conspiracy but it is a fact.
So, now your "well know FACT" is nothing more than a generally accepted belief among your social circle? And the Judges and Magistrates are in on the vast conspiracy as well? It all makes sense now; none of these people are real human beings anyway, with families, friends, neighbors etc that they actually care about. You might find it interesting to know that ...[text shortened]... ubt that any of this is of interest to you. You are much more comfortable in your own reality.
If you don't know that Judges and Magistrates are aware that the police lie and fabricate evidence, you must be living in cloud cuckoo land.
If you are really an honest cop - well done I applaud you, but don't tell me it's the norm 'cause I know different. [*as I said before - maybe it's different in your country]
Originally posted by znsho
I know that a significant number of police lie from several pieces of direct and indirect evidence.
Now we have something to work with. I will respond to each of your points individually. If you read all of my responses, I believe that you will agree that my answers are honest and fair, even if they don’t substantiate your beliefs.
1) There have been several high-profile cases in the UK in which the police have been proven beyond reasonable doubt that they lied, altered witness statements and used brute force to gain 'confessions'. Amazingly, the majority of these police officers have not been charged with perjury and assault. They have been 'pensioned-off.' I suggest you Google The Guildford Four and find out what happened to a 16-year old girl and 3 of her male friends.
These are high profile cases. There is no question that they happen, but they are high profile for a reason… they are extraordinary examples. By definition, that means that they are nor ordinary, they are no reflection on how things are normally done. When these things happen, Police Officers are more often than not held accountable. Ever heard of a gentleman named Rodney King? The Police Officers who were responsible in that case went to jail. Is that a cover up?
2) Ex-police officer acquaintences of mine have admitted and confirmed to me what really happens on a Friday and Saturday night. A significant number of young police officers get a thrill from finding any excuse to intimidate, kick down doors, make sarcastc comments, be rude etc all under the protection of a corrupt legal system. A major problem appears to be young male police officers wishing to show off in front of their young female colleagues.
Teaching young Officers to really understand the responsibility that comes with their tremendous authority (yes, we do have considerable authority over people, but that still isn’t the same as power…we are accountable) is one of the more daunting tasks that falls to a Filed Training Officer and a Supervisor (which I am). Many of the younger hires lack the maturity to understand the difference, and are a bit arrogant in an attempt to fit in with the senior Officers (this is far apart from trying to impress their female counterparts, but the result is the same). I personally don’t think that people should be hired for this job until they have attained at least 25 years of age (which helps to ensure that they have matured a bit, but you don’t want your patrol Officers too old, they do have to fight with people occasionally) and have either served in the armed forced (which builds and understanding and respect for a formal rank structure), or have a college degree (which builds problem solving and communications skills).
3) In my experience, many police officers lack an ability to be open minded and decide for themselves to act as judge, jury and executioner. In their zeal to get a conviction, because of their mistaken belief that the person is guilty, they are quite willing to commit perjury in the belief that they are doing nothing wrong.
This is in your experience. Anecdotal evidence is in no way a basis to make such broad observations. If my only experience with African Americans were being robbed by them, then by your logic I’d be accurate in assuming that the majority of them were thieves. IT simply isn’t the case. There are some, and I have stated that from the beginning. But they are in the minority, by far. I would personally like to see them all terminated, because I don’t believe that there is room in this honorable profession for liars. But I am rather certain that I do know more Officers than most of the people in this thread on a personal level…by far. I also Supervise them and know their work habits. I doubt that my word is of much value to you, because you do not know me, but I know that the VAST majority are men and women of honor and conviction. They would much rather lose a case than perjur themselves. Our integrity truly our most guarded commodity in our profession.
4) Legitimate complaints against the Police are more often than not met with a conspiracy of lies and denials and remarkably similar stories from the 4 or 5 arresting Police Officers. Too similar, in fact.
This is a matter of perception. As a Supervisor, I take the complaints that come in regarding Officers. Every complainant is given the opportunity to reduce their complaints to writing. I have no power to investigate the complaints formally if they don’t, Police Officers have rights, too. If they do give me a written complaint, each case is investigated, and when the Officer is found to have been wrong, corrective action is taken. The problem is that a large number of people will not write the complaint. They shy away and make comments like “Oh, I know how this works!” Then they go out into the world and complain that nothing was done. I’m sorry, but this is their own doing based on their own misguided perceptions, which are fueled by a media and culture that loves a good story more than the truth.
5) Complaints against the police are investigated by the police themselves. It does not take much intelligence to realise exactly whose side the investigating police officer will take.
This was covered in my response to number 4. The investigating Officer is on the side of his/her own conscience. Honorable people act honorable, dishonorable people don’t… most Police Officers are honorable people.
6) Solicitors (lawyers) have confirmed to me that police officers lie.
Lawyers, huh? ;-)
7) I have personal experience of perjury, lies and collusion by several police officers.
Refer to my response to 3 regarding anecdotal evidence. For what it’s worth, if an Officer lied then you have a legitimate complaint against that Officer.
8) Common sense and observation tells me that the police lie to get convictions and to protect themselves. For example, if someone makes a legitimate complaint against an officer, then that officer will lie to keep his / her job. His / her colleagues will do likewise to help their kind. It happens in other professions, ergo it happens in the police force.
Common sense is not common, and observations are subject to individual perception. Do people lie, yes! Will people lie to keep their jobs, yes! Are Cops people, yes! Don’t go hating an entire group of people for being human, otherwise you are being a hypocrite to single out this segment of the population. What on Earth would give justification for you to believe that Cops lie in any greater proportion than any other people, after all, common sense and objective observations would suggest otherwise.
In most Western countries (and even more so in others) police are drastically underpaid for the work they are asked to carry out.
Yes (like all professions) there are those that abuse their authority - however l would like to think that the majority are decent people like anyone else.
The difference is , l dont have to put up with anywhere near the amount of crap they do in my job - let alone the potential violence. They could not afford me, why would i bother dealiong with drunks, breaking up fights etc or in many countries wonder if they next person l pull over for speeding etc will shoot me.....
Individual Police hanve done things in the past that l didnt like - yet these are isolated cases - why tarnish a whole group as a result.
A lot of what l have read here is massive generalisations.
If police were paid better they would attract better candidates and therefore it is likely to assume they would have less instances such as some of the supposed ones here.
My 2c
You have brought up a number of points which require careful answer. For now, I mention your comment:
'What on Earth would give justification for you to believe that Cops lie in any greater proportion than any other people, after all, common sense and objective observations would suggest otherwise.'
Nowhere have I said that the police lie in any greater portion than other people.
I'll reply to your othet points later. You should note that things are done differently in the UK than in the USA. I fully accept that, on the whole, the USA legal system offers better protection to individuals than the UK system.
Originally posted by Ice Coldpeople that "don't like cops", should try spending some time in those areas of the world that have no cops, and report back to us.
Everyone dislikes a cop, untill they are the victim of a crime. Being a cop is an endless, glamourless,thankless job that's gotta be done. Like them or not, they are there to protect the general population from criminal elements.
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Cops... are incompetent small brained ,big-arsed, overly venerated, corrupted excuses for their political masters in society. Do you think that anyone within the police force cares about corruption that is "just part of the job" if it does not hit the press.
... And the press are sensation-seeking weasels, choosing to attack different groups, only because of their own pet hates that they then have to burden the rest of society.
Down with small mind hypocrisy.
Have I made my point?