@pb1022 saidI'm afraid I disagree with your assessment, the point I understand. It is possible to disagree, but you think I'm committing blasphemy to say that sinners are evil. God cleans us; yes, no denying that those who sin are sinners. We need the Lord because we are what we are without Him. This is my last word on this as well with you.
You’re closer but you’re still not addressing the question.
Not talking about evil behavior or evil acts or sinful behavior or sinful acts.
We’re talking about whether you consider yourself - *in the present-day, as a Christian, with God’s Holy Spirit indwelling you and with your sins cleansed by the blood of Christ* - “evil.”
I acknowledge you and every other Christi ...[text shortened]... no longer willing to engage with you on this because I think you’re deliberately missing the point.
@kellyjay said<<It is possible to disagree, but you think I'm committing blasphemy to say that sinners are evil.>>
I'm afraid I disagree with your assessment, the point I understand. It is possible to disagree, but you think I'm committing blasphemy to say that sinners are evil. God cleans us; yes, no denying that those who sin are sinners. We need the Lord because we are what we are without Him. This is my last word on this as well with you.
That isn’t what I’m saying (and I think you know it.)
I’m saying you’re committing blasphemy by saying *Christians* are evil.
Christians whose sins have been forgiven by the blood of Christ, who have God’s Holy Spirit indwelling them, who have been made the righteousness of God in Christ.
To say they are “evil” is indeed committing blasphemy.
You’re insulting the cross of Christ, you’re insulting the blood of Christ and you’re directly committing blasphemy against God’s Holy Spirit.
If you think, as a Christian, you’re no different from an atheist or other non-Christian, then I think you are very mistaken and don’t know or appreciate what Jesus Christ did for you and what your true identity in Christ is.
What did the Apostle John mean when he wrote this?
“Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.”
(1 John 4:4)
I quoted a bumch of verses earlier that stated Christians’ identity here on earth.
Did you not agree with those? How many more do you want?
“But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
(1 Corinthians 15:57)
What “victory” do Christians have if we are evil?
Yes, we owe it all to Christ. But you seem to think Christ did nothing for us because we’re evil and no different from anyone else.
Bizarre.
@kellyjay said<<We need the Lord because we are what we are without Him.>>
I'm afraid I disagree with your assessment, the point I understand. It is possible to disagree, but you think I'm committing blasphemy to say that sinners are evil. God cleans us; yes, no denying that those who sin are sinners. We need the Lord because we are what we are without Him. This is my last word on this as well with you.
But Christians *have* the Lord. Why do you keep raising what humans are without the Lord and applying that status to Christians?
@pb1022 saidA man who tries to clobber another with so much verbiage is unlikely to have shapely biceps.
<<It is possible to disagree, but you think I'm committing blasphemy to say that sinners are evil.>>
That isn’t what I’m saying (and I think you know it.)
I’m saying you’re committing blasphemy by saying *Christians* are evil.
Christians whose sins have been forgiven by the blood of Christ, who have God’s Holy Spirit indwelling them, who have been made the righteousne ...[text shortened]... to think Christ did nothing for us because we’re evil and no different from anyone else.
Bizarre.
@pb1022 saidThe "victory" is that your evil is supposedly forgiven because of Jesus's sacrifice and you will therefore have everlasting life, is it not? That's the "victory" that Christians have, despite being just as evil as non-believers, is it not?
What “victory” do Christians have if we are evil?
@pb1022 saidChristians surely believe that the "sins" still exist even if they have supposedly been forgiven ~ and they also believe that their continuing "sins" in the future will be forgiven, do they not?
Christians whose sins have been forgiven by the blood of Christ, who have God’s Holy Spirit indwelling them, who have been made the righteousness of God in Christ.
@fmf saidHave you discussed this with your friend or hanger-on @divegeester?
The "victory" is that your evil is supposedly forgiven because of Jesus's sacrifice and you will therefore have everlasting life, is it not? That's the "victory" that Christians have, despite being just as evil as non-believers, is it not?
@fmf saidChristians are not “just as evil” as non-believers.
The "victory" is that your evil is supposedly forgiven because of Jesus's sacrifice and you will therefore have everlasting life, is it not? That's the "victory" that Christians have, despite being just as evil as non-believers, is it not?
Christians have God’s Holy Spirit indwelling them and have been made the righteousness of God *in Christ.*
The victory is that sin no longer has dominion over us, that we can walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
And the victory is that we are a new creation in Christ.
@fmf saidSure, no one denies that Christians do not occasionally still sin, but it should over time be significantly less compared to their pre-Christian selves - not through self effort but through the transforming power of God’s Holy Spirit in changing their hearts and, subsequently, their behavior.
Christians surely believe that the "sins" still exist even if they have supposedly been forgiven ~ and they also believe that their continuing "sins" in the future will be forgiven, do they not?
@fmf saidChristians retain the sinful nature they had prior to becoming Christians; that is why there is a struggle between the Spirit and the flesh - what the Apostle Paul writes about in Romans 7 and Galatians.
If it is not "evil" that causes Christians to "sin" and their supposed unavoidably "sinful nature", then what is it?
But Christians have the ability to walk in the Spirit and overcome their sinful nature, which is an ability non-Christians do not have.
“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.”
(Galatians 5:16-18)
@fmf saidWe get forgiveness when we ask God for it; we still struggle, but victory is in Christ. Those who are not struggling are pretty content and see no need to change; those who look down on others are more wrapped up in their pride than Christ's forgiveness. If it were dependent upon us, we would fail so miserably, which is why the grace of God and faith in Christ are vital; we cannot earn our righteousness by our deeds, we cannot stay clean on our own without Christ, He is the sure foundation we can cling to, to rest in His work and His blood for our sins.
Christians surely believe that the "sins" still exist even if they have supposedly been forgiven ~ and they also believe that their continuing "sins" in the future will be forgiven, do they not?
@pb1022 saidI used the word "evil" in the hyperbolic way you and KellyJay use it. That was a slip-up on my part. Let me use a better word: moral. I don't think any group - Christians or non-Christians - is any more or less moral than the next on account of their beliefs with regard to supernatural beings.
Christians are not “just as evil” as non-believers.
@pb1022 saidI see no evidence that any supernatural transformation happens to Christians in the way they claim it does. Some people behave in a more morally sound way because of their Christian beliefs, others don't.
Christians have God’s Holy Spirit indwelling them and have been made the righteousness of God *in Christ.*
@pb1022 saidChristians, by their own definition of "sin" and human nature, continue to "sin" their whole lives long. The only "victory" they seem to be alluding to is that they will be forgiven and gain everlasting life despite their "sinful" nature.
The victory is that sin no longer has dominion over us, that we can walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.