@pb1022 saidEverybody, to varying degrees, has a struggle between moral and immoral behaviour going on inside them as they try to apply their moral compasses to the business of navigating their way through life and interacting with others.
Christians retain the sinful nature they had prior to becoming Christians; that is why there is a struggle between the Spirit and the flesh - what the Apostle Paul writes about in Romans 7 and Galatians.
Morality is a social construct regardless of the fact that Christians [for instance] superimpose supernatural notions onto the concepts of good and bad in their efforts to make sense of their own human nature.
@fmf saidMoral in what way?
I used the word "evil" in the hyperbolic way you and KellyJay use it. That was a slip-up on my part. Let me use a better word: moral. I don't think any group - Christians or non-Christians - is any more or less moral than the next on account of their beliefs with regard to supernatural beings.
Moral in their behavior or moral in their position before God?
I don’t think you can classify Christians as all having the same behavioral morality because some will consciously want to be led by God’s Holy Spirit and spend time communing with God in prayer, reading the Holy Bible and listening to sermons about what Jesus Christ accomplished for them, while other Christians will not.
In other words, some Christians will be led by the Spirit and other Christians will not.
As far as non-believers, their behavioral morality obviously varies from person to person as well.
But if you take a group of Christians committed to fellowship with God and walking in the Spirit, I absolutely think they are more moral than non-believers - one major reason being that they view as *one* of their responsibilities sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ which has both earthly and eternal ramifications.
Non-believers obviously do not share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
@kellyjay saidIf this is different from me saying: "The "victory" is that your "evil" is supposedly forgiven because of Jesus's sacrifice and you will therefore have everlasting life" then so be it, but you are probably splitting hairs.
We get forgiveness when we ask God for it; we still struggle, but victory is in Christ.
@pb1022 saidMorality as it pertains to human interaction. "Sin" and morality sometimes overlap, but much of the time they don't. I don't really care how much KellyJay or you say you "sin" or don't "sin". I think "sin" only exists in the minds of theists.
Moral in what way?Moral in their behavior or moral in their position before God?
@pb1022 saidI am not trying to classify Christians as all having the same behavioural morality.
I don’t think you can classify Christians as all having the same behavioral morality because some will consciously want to be led by God’s Holy Spirit and spend time communing with God in prayer, reading the Holy Bible and listening to sermons about what Jesus Christ accomplished for them, while other Christians will not.
Nor am I accepting that Christian's recitation of religious doctrine about "God’s Holy Spirit" is going to correlate significantly to their behavioural morality.
@pb1022 saidNevertheless, by their own testimony, and their own definition of "sin", they continue to "sin".
In other words, some Christians will be led by the Spirit and other Christians will not.
That is, after all, why you say you believe you are "saved" by "Grace".
I don't see how Christians' talk about how they are supposedly "led by the Spirit" translates into anything that mitigates their self-professed "sinful nature".
@fmf said<<Everybody, to varying degrees, has a struggle between moral and immoral behaviour going on inside them as they try to apply their moral compasses to the business of navigating their way through life and interacting with others.>>
Everybody, to varying degrees, has a struggle between moral and immoral behaviour going on inside them as they try to apply their moral compasses to the business of navigating their way through life and interacting with others.
Morality is a social construct regardless of the fact that Christians [for instance] superimpose supernatural notions onto the concepts of good and bad in their efforts to make sense of their own human nature.
What is a non-believer’s morality based on? And is it absolute or relative?
<<Morality is a social construct regardless of the fact that Christians [for instance] superimpose supernatural notions onto the concepts of good and bad in their efforts to make sense of their own human nature.>>
I disagree. I believe morality came from God.
@fmf saidI think sin is an offense against God so I’d agree that sin makes little sense to an atheist.
Morality as it pertains to human interaction. "Sin" and morality sometimes overlap, but much of the time they don't. I don't really care how much KellyJay or you say you "sin" or don't "sin". I think "sin" only exists in the minds of theists.
@fmf said<<I am not trying to classify Christians as all having the same behavioural morality.>>
I am not trying to classify Christians as all having the same behavioural morality.
Nor am I accepting that Christian's recitation of religious doctrine about "God’s Holy Spirit" is going to correlate significantly to their behavioural morality.
I thought you were in this sentence you previously wrote: <<I don't think any group - Christians or non-Christians - is any more or less moral than the next on account of their beliefs with regard to supernatural beings.>>
<<Nor am I accepting that Christian's recitation of religious doctrine about "God’s Holy Spirit" is going to correlate significantly to their behavioural morality.>>
Well obviously you don’t have to accept it, but I believe it.
@pb1022 saidI do not rule out that a creator entity may have installed consciences and consciousness in human beings.
I believe morality came from God.
But, if you are talking about how "morality came from God" in the way "revealed" religions claim, then I think that it's just subjective/relative stuff that you have absorbed from your environment and internalized and no matter how certain you are about your own moral compass, the resulting perspectives are always going to subjective aside from where they are rooted in empirical data.
@fmf said<<Nevertheless, by their own testimony, and their own definition of "sin", they continue to "sin".>>
Nevertheless, by their own testimony, and their own definition of "sin", they continue to "sin".
That is, after all, why you say you believe you are "saved" by "Grace".
I don't see how Christians' talk about how they are supposedly "led by the Spirit" translates into anything that mitigates their self-professed "sinful nature".
Right. Because they are still in the flesh and have retained their sin nature. Even the Apostle Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, struggled to do what’s right and not do what’s wrong - he wrote about in Romans 7.
<<That is, after all, why you say you believe you are "saved" by "Grace".>>
Right. God’s Grace.
<<I don't see how Christians' talk about how they are supposedly "led by the Spirit" translates into anything that mitigates their self-professed "sinful nature".>>
Well I wouldn’t expect you to without knowing the individual history of someone before he or she became a Christian and without being around them 24/7.
@pb1022 saidNo.
<<I am not trying to classify Christians as all having the same behavioural morality.>>
I thought you were in this sentence you previously wrote: <<I don't think any group - Christians or non-Christians - is any more or less moral than the next on account of their beliefs with regard to supernatural beings.>>
The label "Christian" does not amount to much, to my way of thinking, when it comes to whether they are ~ as individuals ~ morally sound or not.
As for "sin", that's something for people who believe it is real to discuss.
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@pb1022 saidI have no reason to believe that anything supernatural has happened to someone just because they say they believe it has and claim that it has.
<<I don't see how Christians' talk about how they are supposedly "led by the Spirit" translates into anything that mitigates their self-professed "sinful nature".>>
Well I wouldn’t expect you to without knowing the individual history of someone before he or she became a Christian and without being around them 24/7.
Whether the psychological effect on them of having that belief [that something supernatural has happened to them] translates into morally sound or morally unsound behaviour, one cannot generalize.
If someone's religious beliefs [including how those beliefs pertain to themselves] result in morally sound behaviour on their part, then I welcome it. But their talk of being "led by the Spirit", in and of itself, is pretty meaningless.
@pb1022 saidIt's not that it "makes little sense to an atheist" [indeed, it's really not difficult to understand], no, it's simply not seen as being a real thing by an atheist ~ at least not outside a theist's private thoughts or the thoughts they share when they talk about "sin" to other theists.
I think sin is an offense against God so I’d agree that sin makes little sense to an atheist.