Atheists vs Agnostics

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Sorry can't hear you. (Due to your own head being in the sand).

Our friend, Mr Z, says it is impossible to know if God exists or not and remains uncertain. So what is he if not an agnostic?!? Atheist?.....No. Mr Z is perfectly open to the idea that God exists. Theist then?....No. Mr Z is perfectly open to the conclusion that God doesn't exist.

Mr Z is an agnostic. Deal with it.

If Mr. Z is able to say that he has no opinion about the nature of truth and reality then Mr. Z would be an Agnostic.

Until then this Mr Z is just an atheist who believes he could be wrong.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Agreed, “only god can open eyes”

So how does this fit with your claim that people can somehow “choose”?

If you want to go down the double predestination road then sure. You feel like you have made up your mind. That works for me.

Originally posted by @eladar

I have not run into a person who has not taken a side.

Ask a child who is free from indoctrination.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Are you intending on ignoring me in 2018 or would you like to discuss a truce of some sort? (Not that I feel like we fight much anyway)

Bump for Kellyjay

Originally posted by @divegeester
Seeking is not believing.

Seeking is choosing though. The choice of seeking is rewarded with belief, no?

Originally posted by @eladar
If Mr. Z is able to say that he has no opinion about the nature of truth and reality then Mr. Z would be an Agnostic.

Until then this Mr Z is just an atheist who believes he could be wrong.

You appear to be under the illusion that an agnostic is someone without an opinion.

How quaint.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
You appear to be under the illusion that an agnostic is someone without an opinion.

How quaint.

Without an opinion on the existence of God.

Originally posted by @eladar
If you want to go down the double predestination road then sure. You feel like you have made up your mind. That works for me.

How does you claim that “only god can open their eyes” sit with your contradictory claim that “they have to make a choice”?

Originally posted by @divegeester
How does you claim that “only god can open their eyes” sit with your contradictory claim that “they have to make a choice”?

They base their choice on what they see.

Originally posted by @eladar
They base their choice on what they see.

You are not answering my question; how does someone make the choice you are claiming they should make, without God opening their eyes?

Originally posted by @divegeester
You are not answering my question; how does someone make the choice you are claiming they should make, without God opening their eyes?

I did answer your question. I can't help it if you can't see it.

Originally posted by @eladar
Without an opinion on the existence of God.

Nope.
Agnostics certainly do have opinions on the existence of god.
Namely that that knowledge (the existence or non-existence of god) is unknowable.

On top of that they may either be atheist or theist.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Actually I disagree, only blind faith would reject reasoning. All things that we hold true we do with cause and cause has a reason. Simply because I cannot prove something doesn’t mean I can’t believe it to be true, and as important simply because we believe our reasons are truthful doesn’t mean that they are. This brings us back to faith which sole existence doesn’t just revolve around God.

If you cannot prove the existence of God, where does your faith come from? Why believe in something for no reason? Does your faith perhaps come from conditioning, indoctrination or social expectation? If so, it is bogus. Do you look at the world and think 'how can this beautifully designed world possibly have come into existence without a Prime Cause? If so, you ignore Darwin and evolution. Please explain why you have faith and where this faith springs from. I do not undstand. I am a simple person, though wise enough to see more than black and white.

Originally posted by @eladar
I did answer your question. I can't help it if you can't see it.

No, you didn’t you are contradicting yourself. Now you are being dishonest about it.

When asked how someone can can “choose” to believe something they don’t believe in...
You said:
“Only god can open their eyes”
And then you said:
“They have to choose based on what they can see”

So if god has not opened their eyes, how can they see in order to choose?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Its all about faith, so I tend to agree with you. I cannot prove what I believe, there is
always room for doubt. If I knew than it wouldn't be faith, it would be knowledge. I have in
my life had experiences that give me glimpses into what I have to say this is beyond the
natural, but they give no "proof" to others they are only part of my testimony, which again
if believed have to be taken on faith.

In my own life experience, I have been given proof which proves the point to me beyond a reasonable doubt, but this is no proof for others. Faith cannot be a proof to those who have no such faith. But I know my faith is true.

In this way, my faith IS my knowledge. My faith is no one else's knowledge, but it is MY knowledge. That my faith is my knowledge does not mean that I have no faith. My faith and my belief IS a fact of life to me, and also in this way, it IS knowledge. But again, it is MY knowledge, no one else's. There is always faith, and because of this faith, I have been shown, and thus have knowledge of, its truth.

But this doesn't mean others can know in this way. Not without faith. It is like trying to explain what BLUE looks like to a blind man.