ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
"he is a committed atheist"
I do not think that I have actually encountered an agnostic on the internet or in person. Everyone I have ever come into contact with who claimed to be an agnostic has been an atheist.
Just because you would change your mind about the existence of God should you see God does not mean you do not believe god is a fairy tale until then. As long as you believe that god is a fairy tale you are an atheist.
Originally posted by @eladar ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
"he is a committed atheist"
...[text shortened]... le until then. As long as you believe that god is a fairy tale you are an atheist.
Accept it.
Everyone is either a theist or an atheist. It's one or the other. If you do not self-identify as a theist, then by default you are an atheist. Agnostics do not exist as a separate category. One is either an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist.
Originally posted by @eladar ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
"he is a committed atheist"
...[text shortened]... le until then. As long as you believe that god is a fairy tale you are an atheist.
Accept it.
"ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods."
"Everyone I have ever come into contact with who claimed to be an agnostic has been an atheist."
Well that part about "or lacks belief" fits me. But call me whatever you want, so long as it's not slanderous.
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17 Dec '17 06:372 edits
Two kinds of agnostics:
Soft Agnostic - " I don't know God. Maybe somebody else does know God."
Hard Agnostic - " I don't know God. And nobody else knows God either."
My perception of a characteristic of a New Atheist - An old atheist who realizes that philosophical debates between atheists and theists didn't have the atheist come out so clearly the victor. So the definition of Atheism is modified so as to remove all burden of presenting a truth claim away from the atheist.
Originally posted by @rwingett Everyone is either a theist or an atheist. It's one or the other. If you do not self-identify as a theist, then by default you are an atheist. Agnostics do not exist as a separate category. One is either an agnostic theist, or an agnostic atheist.
I suppose someone could be an agnostic but I have never seen such a person.
An agnostic would have to claim neither accepting there is a God nor can the agnostic deny there is a god even in his own mind. Both sides need to be equally accepted and rejected. Yet everyone picks one side of the fence.
Originally posted by @eladar I suppose someone could be an agnostic but I have never seen such a person.
An agnostic would have to claim neither accepting there is a God nor can the agnostic deny there is a god even in his own mind. Both sides need to be equally accepted and rejected. Yet everyone picks one side of the fence.
You merely over-complicate by setting such qualifiers. It is not necessary to be perfectly balanced between belief and disbelief to be considered an agnostic.
Mr X believes there is sufficient reason to believe in a deity. Mr X is a theist.
Mr Y believes there is insufficient or no reason to believe in a deity. Mr Y is an atheist.
Mr Z believes it is not possible to know either way. There might be, there might not be. Mr Z is an agnostic, and what's more, he is not alone. Far from it.
Agnosticism has nothing to do with 'knowing' God.(Such terminology from sonship is heavily tainted by his own theistic outlook). It is a question about God's 'actual existence' not a default assumption He exists but may or may not be known to people.
Originally posted by @eladar ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
"he is a committed atheist"
...[text shortened]... le until then. As long as you believe that god is a fairy tale you are an atheist.
Accept it.
Everyone is deep down agnostic.
How can it be otherwise?
Unless God were to announce himself in clouds of glory and heavenly choirs of angels, no one truly knows.
Even the most committed theist has doubts. Therefore, he is agnostic.
Even the most committed atheist has to leave a minute percentage to allow for the possibility of his existence.
The problem is that everyone thinks they know and off they go on their white charger fighting for their cause.
Originally posted by @pianoman1 Everyone is deep down agnostic.
How can it be otherwise?
Unless God were to announce himself in clouds of glory and heavenly choirs of angels, no one truly knows.
Even the most committed theist has doubts. Therefore, he is agnostic.
Even the most committed atheist has to leave a minute percentage to allow for the possibility of his existence.
The pro ...[text shortened]... that everyone thinks they know and off they go on their white charger fighting for their cause.
Its all about faith, so I tend to agree with you. I cannot prove what I believe, there is
always room for doubt. If I knew than it wouldn't be faith, it would be knowledge. I have in
my life had experiences that give me glimpses into what I have to say this is beyond the
natural, but they give no "proof" to others they are only part of my testimony, which again
if believed have to be taken on faith.
Originally posted by @kellyjay Its all about faith, so I tend to agree with you. I cannot prove what I believe, there is
always room for doubt. If I knew than it wouldn't be faith, it would be knowledge.
What a peculiar 'supernatural' mechanism for deciding who gets burned, non-stop, forever, and who gets immortality. But at least you are conceding that you don't have knowledge about it, and only have faith.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke You merely over-complicate by setting such qualifiers. It is not necessary to be perfectly balanced between belief and disbelief to be considered an agnostic.
Mr X believes there is sufficient reason to believe in a deity. Mr X is a theist.
Mr Y believes there is insufficient or no reason to believe in a deity. Mr Y is an atheist.
Mr Z believes ...[text shortened]... d's 'actual existence' not a default assumption He exists but may or may not be known to people.
I said it was possible to be an agnostic. I just said I have never run into one.
Originally posted by @fmf What a peculiar 'supernatural' mechanism for deciding who gets burned, non-stop, forever, and who gets immortality.
This idea that because of an intangible god given thing called “faith”, that some people will be supernaturally kept alive in eternal bliss, while other people who do not have god given “faith” will be supernaturally burnt alive for the same eternity, while Jesus is being worshiped by the former group and simultaneously supervising the the later in hell...has got to be the most horrendous and yet ridiculous concept ever invented. Expecting non-believers to somehow be convinced of God’s existence and want to love him, because of this concept, is the second most ridiculous concept ever invented.
Originally posted by @pianoman1 Everyone is deep down agnostic.
How can it be otherwise?
Unless God were to announce himself in clouds of glory and heavenly choirs of angels, no one truly knows.
Even the most committed theist has doubts. Therefore, he is agnostic.
Even the most committed atheist has to leave a minute percentage to allow for the possibility of his existence.
The pro ...[text shortened]... that everyone thinks they know and off they go on their white charger fighting for their cause.
How can it be otherwise?
You confuse being open minded or having doubt with held belief. No one knows anything as absolute fact, yet we make decisions and move along.
Originally posted by @kellyjay Its all about faith, so I tend to agree with you. I cannot prove what I believe, there is
always room for doubt. If I knew than it wouldn't be faith, it would be knowledge. I have in
my life had experiences that give me glimpses into what I have to say this is beyond the
natural, but they give no "proof" to others they are only part of my testimony, which again
if believed have to be taken on faith.
Your “testimony” as you choose to call it, is a construct of what you do and why you do it, i.e. your beliefs/doctrines. Telling someone that you have chosen to believe a horrible thing is part of your “testimony”. Telling people that you believe that Jesus will burn them alive forever if they don’t believe in him and love him is beyond ridiculous. Can you not see this?
Edit: the doctrine of eternal suffering CANNOT be right. It simply doesn’t make moral sense on any level.
Atheists vs Agnostics
17 Dec '17 02:511 edit
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