Originally posted by @thinkofone
Yet the same old ad hom as a way of avoiding actually addressing the issue. You've been called out on this many times before by both rajk999 and me. I know you're intelligent enough to understand what an ad hom is and why it is fallacious.

Or, you could, you know, answer the question.

Either one of you.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
Do you ever take the time to actually think about very much at all?

You officially have lost the right to b|tch about other people's (supposedly) loaded questions.

Hypocrite.

Originally posted by @suzianne
Or, you could, you know, answer the question.

Either one of you.

You've had this explained to you many times before.

This is what I wrote:
<<One needs to decide whether or not one believes the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. I fully understand the you believe a different gospel.>>

Either it is correct or it isn't. Whether or not any given individual sins has nothing to do with what the two gospels actually say.

If you disagree with it, then show where it is incorrect. You can start with the quote from Luke 6 that I just reposted on the previous page. It's a different gospel. The quote from Luke 6 is just a small part of that evidence.

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
You officially have lost the right to b|tch about other people's (supposedly) loaded questions.

Hypocrite.

You don't seem to have thought this out.

Let's see.

I responded to your loaded question with a response befitting that question. You're the one that "bitched" about my answer. I explained why I gave the answer I did instead of answering your loaded question directly.

Everyone has the right to do the same with any loaded question anyone may ask.

Of course there's also the fact that the question you just quoted was rhetorical. I not only didn't expect a direct answer, I didn't expect one at all.

How exactly does this make me a "hypocrite"?

Originally posted by @thinkofone
Let's take a closer look:
>>"vicarious atonement": God atones for the sins of the individual - instead of the individual atoning for His sins by actually being righteous, that is ceasing to sin.

>>"imputed righteousness": Christ’s righteousness is imputed to the individual through faith - instead of the individual having to actually be righteous, th ...[text shortened]...

So how do you explain the fact that you're the one who holds remarkably self-serving beliefs?

So you're a fan of Rajk's kool-aid then.

All of his ridiculous comments that there will be atheists in the Kingdom of God, you ate up all of that hook, line and sinker, eh?I

Is this why you claim to follow the "words" of Jesus without following his philosophy? So that you can claim that believing in him is less important than merely "doing works"?

1) Yes, God atones for the sin of the individual. That is why Jesus died on the cross. The actual sinless Lamb taking our sins onto himself. This is the gift and the promise of God.

2) Yes, Christ's righteousness is imputed to the individual through faith. If it were any other way, then His sacrifice on the cross, for us, was a useless gesture.

3) All of man has original sin. This leads to the depravity of man. And yes, this IS also why all his efforts to become righteous of his own accord actually IS a useless gesture. Don't get me wrong, some get close. But we all "fall short of the glory of God" by our own efforts.

4) Again, no one "becomes righteous" on their own. We cannot bridge the gap between us and God by ourselves. This is why we need the intercession of the actually sinless Lamb of God.

All of this is NOT a matter of "taking responsibility for ourselves". We CANNOT do that. No one is "good" (read "good enough on their own" ) but God.

And yes, this is what DG was trying to make you understand (apologies if I have this wrong), that this is the "Good News" of the Gospel: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Note the wording. He said "should not", not "will not", meaning there is more that "should" be done (and this is where "good works" comes in). But first, the reader must believeth in him AND accept his offer; it is NOT "automatic".

God promises to us what he will do, if we meet our end of the bargain. God did this for us, because he so loved the world. He offers this to us, because he loves us. This is the "Good News" of the Gospel.

Why do you therefore slam Christians for being "self-serving"? This is the easy judgement of the atheists, who do not believe such an offer was ever made. Are you among them?

Originally posted by @thinkofone
Let's take a closer look:
>>"vicarious atonement": God atones for the sins of the individual - instead of the individual atoning for His sins by actually being righteous, that is ceasing to sin.

>>"imputed righteousness": Christ’s righteousness is imputed to the individual through faith - instead of the individual having to actually be righteous, th ...[text shortened]...

So how do you explain the fact that you're the one who holds remarkably self-serving beliefs?

Your definitions/understanding is off.

Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross doesn’t alleviate people of responsibility for their sins. They must believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him into their hearts for their sins to be covered by His blood.

Your belief is that one must never sin again - not identifying how that is possible when coveting and lying are sins and Jesus said being angry at someone and looking on a woman with lust in your heart are also sins.

People are made righteous (in right standing with God) by accepting Christ, and if their acceptance of Him was sincere, they will naturally sin less and less as God’s Holy Spirit indwells them and changes their hearts, and, as a result, their behavior.

Your belief is that people can make themselves righteous and stop sinning on their own. They can’t,

The individual becomes righteous (in right standing with God) through believing in and accepting Christ. You again think people can make themselves righteous. Doesn’t work that way and never did; that’s why, before Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, Jews had to sacrifice animals to atone for their sins.

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

(Romans 6:23)

The utter depravity of man is referenced numerous times in the Bible. Here’s one example:

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

(Romans 3:23)

Here are verses that indirectly reference it:

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

(Romans 8:1-4)

On your last point, believing in and accepting Christ isn’t a single, solitary event. It’s the start of a relationship with Christ and walk with Christ where one becomes an instrument of God’s will. The individual is called to remain faithful to Christ and to strengthen the indwelt Holy Spirit’s influence in his or her life through regular reading of the Bible and prayer.

You apparently think God wants humans to be running around like chickens with their heads cut off, doing what they consider to be good works, never knowing which ones they should be doing or whether they’re doing enough.

Instead, by sincerely accepting and believing in Christ, one receives God’s Holy Spirit and will know they are within God’s will as they walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

What you view as self-serving beliefs are gifts from God.

Originally posted by @suzianne
So you're a fan of Rajk's kool-aid then.

All of his ridiculous comments that there will be atheists in the Kingdom of God, you ate up all of that hook, line and sinker, eh?I

Is this why you claim to follow the "words" of Jesus without following his philosophy? So that you can claim that believing in him is less important than merely "doing works"?
...[text shortened]... judgement of the atheists, who do not believe such an offer was ever made. Are you among them?

If you have any desire for eternal life in the Kingdom of God I suggest you revise that nonsensical church doctrine.
- You have no special licence to continue with sin and be constantly forgiven. There is a limit to that.
- You have no special imputed righteousness that falls in your head and heart.
- Righteousness comes from obedience to the commandments of Christ.
- God is not a respecter of persons.
- God sees good people, he sees evil people, he does not see Chrsitians or Atheists.
- Professions of faith are useless .. good works is what counts

For God will reward each of us according to what we have done.
Some people keep on doing good, and seek glory, honor, and immortal life;
to them God will give eternal life.
Other people are selfish and reject what is right, in order to follow what is wrong;
on them God will pour out his anger and fury. (Romans 2:6-8 GNB)

Originally posted by @thinkofone
It's really interesting how FMJ, you and Romans1009 all so consistently jump to very similar, very illogical conclusions. If you aren't all the same person, you might as well be.

Wow it's amazing that when you and a quite a few others here are cornered you resort to trolling. If you aren't all the same person, you might as well be. #thinkofone logic 🙄

Originally posted by @rajk999
If you have any desire for eternal life in the Kingdom of God I suggest you revise that nonsensical church doctrine.
- You have no special licence to continue with sin and be constantly forgiven. There is a limit to that.
- You have no special imputed righteousness that falls in your head and heart.
- Righteousness comes from obedience to the commandmen ...[text shortened]... to follow what is wrong;
on them God will pour out his anger and fury. (Romans 2:6-8 GNB)[/i]

<<You have no special licence to continue with sin and be constantly forgiven.>>

No one ever claimed anyone had “a special license to continue with sin” after believing in and accepting Christ. In fact, if they continue to willfully sin, it’s evidence they did not sincerely accept Christ to begin with because if they had, they would have received God’s Holy Spirit and His Holy Spirit would have started to change their hearts.

<<There is a limit to that.>>

What is the limit? ToO thinks a person cannot commit a single sin after accepting Christ. Surely you no longer agree with that foolishness based on what you’ve written here. But what is the limit?

<<You have no special imputed righteousness that falls in your head and heart.>>

Yes, you do. One who sincerely believes in and accepts Christ is made righteous (in right standing with God) because of Christ.

<<Righteousness comes from obedience to the commandments of Christ.>>

One is made righteous (in right standing with God) by believing in and accepting Christ. God’s Holy Spirit then indwells the believer and changes his or her heart (and subsequently his or her behavior.)

<<God is not a respecter of persons.>>

This refers to Jews and Gentiles. At one time, Jews were God’s “chosen people.” After Christ’s sacrifice, the ability to become children of God was available to Gentiles as well.

<<God sees good people, he sees evil people, he does not see Chrsitians or Atheists.>>

This is about as false as you can get. The truth is, God sees those who have accepted Christ and who therefore have been made righteous and those who haven’t and who will die in their sins.

<<Professions of faith are useless .. good works is what counts>>

Explain John 3:16, Romans 10:9, the numerous places in the Bible that speak of the importance of faith and the numerous times Jesus said for people to believe on Him.

Originally posted by @romans1009
<<You have no special licence to continue with sin and be constantly forgiven.>>

No one ever claimed anyone had “a special license to continue with sin” after believing in and accepting Christ. In fact, if they continue to willfully sin, it’s evidence they did not sincerely accept Christ to begin with because if they had, they would have received God’ ...[text shortened]... speak of the importance of faith and the numerous times Jesus said for people to believe on Him.

This is the answer to your John 3:16 doctrine:

For God will reward each of us according to what we have done.
Some people keep on doing good, and seek glory, honor, and immortal life;
to them God will give eternal life.
Other people are selfish and reject what is right, in order to follow what is wrong;
on them God will pour out his anger and fury. (Romans 2:6-8 GNB)

Your interpretation of the word 'believe' is flawed.

Belief is of the heart and not with your mouth

Belief of the heart = obedience to Christ.

Originally posted by @rajk999
This is the answer to your John 3:16 doctrine:

[i]For God will reward each of us according to what we have done.
Some people keep on doing good, and seek glory, honor, and immortal life;
to them God will give eternal life.
Other people are selfish and reject what is right, in order to follow what is wrong;
on them God will pour out his anger and ...[text shortened]... ief is of the heart and not with your mouth

[b]Belief of the heart = obedience to Christ.[/b]

Never said belief was with the mouth and have repeatedly said belief is with the heart.

The difference you and I have is over when someone obtains salvation, I believe it is at the moment he or she accepts Jesus Christ into their heart. You believe they must do an unspecified number and type of good works and then hope for the best.

Which of these is Biblical?

Originally posted by @rajk999
This is the answer to your John 3:16 doctrine:

[i]For God will reward each of us according to what we have done.
Some people keep on doing good, and seek glory, honor, and immortal life;
to them God will give eternal life.
Other people are selfish and reject what is right, in order to follow what is wrong;
on them God will pour out his anger and ...[text shortened]... ief is of the heart and not with your mouth

[b]Belief of the heart = obedience to Christ.[/b]

My John 3:16 “doctrine?” What did you mean by that?

BTW, one of the other areas in which we disagree concerning this topic is how one is obedient to Christ. You think it is through their own carnal efforts. I think it is through following the promptings of God’s Holy Spirit, which indwelt every believer at the moment he or she sincerely believed in and accepted Christ.

Which of these is Biblical?

Originally posted by @suzianne
So you're a fan of Rajk's kool-aid then.

All of his ridiculous comments that there will be atheists in the Kingdom of God, you ate up all of that hook, line and sinker, eh?I

Is this why you claim to follow the "words" of Jesus without following his philosophy? So that you can claim that believing in him is less important than merely "doing works"?
...[text shortened]... judgement of the atheists, who do not believe such an offer was ever made. Are you among them?

When Jesus began His ministry, He declared the purpose for which He was "anointed" (see Luke 4):. The purpose for which He is the Christ. Christ means "anointed one".
1) To preach His gospel - These are the words He spoke while preaching His gospel during His ministry.
2) To give sight to the blind - To open the eyes of those blind to the will of God. The will of God is contained in His gospel.
3) To set free the captives - To FREE those who abide in His word from the slavery of committing sin. To FREE those who abide in His gospel (see John 8).

That's it. During His ministry, Jesus did exactly what He said He was going to do. This is the gospel preached by Jesus.

I advocate for the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

You seem to be advocating for a very different gospel. For example, the crux of your gospel seems to be "the utter depravity of man": This is not part of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. Not only is it not a part of the gospel preached by Jesus, Jesus preached the opposite (see John 8). If you believe that this is untrue, then make a cogent case for it.

We can go right down the line with all the self-serving beliefs for which you are advocating.

BTW, there is disagreement amongst biblical scholars and bible translations as to whether John 3:16 was spoken by Jesus or was a comment by the narrator of John. In fact the disagreement includes all of John 3:13-21 as to when Jesus stops speaking and the narrator of John begins. Considering the whole of the gospel preached by Jesus and the shift to what would be an extremely awkward third person reference to Himself (amongst other reasons), it makes sense that it is the narrator of John.

Originally posted by @romans1009
<<You have no special licence to continue with sin and be constantly forgiven.>>

No one ever claimed anyone had “a special license to continue with sin” after believing in and accepting Christ. In fact, if they continue to willfully sin, it’s evidence they did not sincerely accept Christ to begin with because if they had, they would have received God’ ...[text shortened]... speak of the importance of faith and the numerous times Jesus said for people to believe on Him.

ToO thinks a person cannot commit a single sin after accepting Christ.

Actually ToO thinks that an individual does not "live in the kingdom" nor have "eternal life" unless the individual no longer commits sin. If you are going to speak for ToO, then get it right instead of continuing to dishonestly misrepresent what ToO has been saying.

Based on what "accepting Christ" typically entails, it is a meaningless gesture according to the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
When Jesus began His ministry, He declared the purpose for which He was "anointed" (see Luke 4):. The purpose for which He is the Christ. Christ means "anointed one".
1) To preach His gospel - These are the words He spoke while preaching His gospel during His ministry.
2) To give sight to the blind - To open the eyes of those blind to the will of God ...[text shortened]... on reference to Himself (amongst other reasons), it makes sense that it is the narrator of John.

<<1) To preach His gospel - These are the words He spoke while preaching His gospel during His ministry.>>

Sadly, you ignore all the times Jesus Christ stressed the importance of believing on Him and in Him, as well as His all-important message about the New Covenant.

<<To give sight to the blind - To open the eyes of those blind to the will of God. The will of God is contained in His gospel.>>

Jesus *literally* gave sight to the blind, one of numerous miracles He performed to prove He was the Jews’ long-awaited Messiah. Why are you claiming this is a metaphor? To fit your false belief Jesus Christ was only a man?

“And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.“

(John 11:1-5)

<<To set free the captives - To FREE those who abide in His word from the slavery of committing sin. To FREE those who abide in His gospel (see John 8).>>

He freed them from the power sin had over them. He did not free them from ever commiting sin again. Because human beings have free will, they will always have the choice of whether to succumb to temptation and sin or not to do that. Jesus Christ freed them from not having that choice and being a slave to sin.