Originally posted by galveston75Do you really believe the statement that Jesus was the only begotten Son
What????? So far is the craziest explination you've come up with. You are totally lost here aren't you?
I can't wait to see what you come up with next as this is actually becoming my daily entertainment.
of God means God the Father created Him only?
Originally posted by RJHindsI believe it because that's what the Bible says including yours. But I can only imagine the position it puts you in with the trinity. Just doesn't work does it?
Do you really believe the statement that Jesus was the only begotten Son
of God means God the Father created Him only?
But very simply put Jehovah's first creation was his son Jesus. Later with his Fathers help and direction Jesus was very involved with the rest of creation we see.
But again to confuse this trinity thing more, why isn't the holy spirit included here with the works of creation? Why was he or it not invovled as Jesus was? Why is the holy spirit not a begotten son also?
Originally posted by galveston75Genesis 1
I believe it because that's what the Bible says including yours. But I can only imagine the position it puts you in with the trinity. Just doesn't work does it?
But very simply put Jehovah's first creation was his son Jesus. Later with his Fathers help and direction Jesus was very involved with the rest of creation we see.
But again to confuse this ...[text shortened]... Why was he or it not invovled as Jesus was? Why is the holy spirit not a begotten son also?
The Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
The Spirit was there and He is also God
Manny
Originally posted by menace71Yes, the Holy Spirit was there searching out what was being created.
Genesis 1
The Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light f ...[text shortened]... was evening and there was morning, one day.
The Spirit was there and He is also God
Manny
Was it not the Son of God that created the the heavens and the earth?
Then who was this God the spoke the light into existence? Where was
God the Father?
Originally posted by menace71No it doesn't say that at all Manny. It does not say it is God but it says it is the "spirit of God." If the spirit is a God as you believe then it would simple say God was moving over the surface of the earth, but it does not say that.
Genesis 1
The Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light f ...[text shortened]... was evening and there was morning, one day.
The Spirit was there and He is also God
Manny
Until you understand what is clearly says here you'll never understand what that spirit is.
Again Jehovah is a spirit and it's his spirit or power that he accomplishes what he's doing and in this case it was creating the earth.
As I said before we use physical strength with our physical bodies to make things such as buliding a house.
Jehovah does not use a physical force such as a muscle but he does things with his spiritual strength and that is simple his spirit or will. He only has to think of a thing happening and it's his spirit that makes it happen.
It's a wrong thing for ones to deal into spiritistic things as satan is behind them, but when you see Hollywoods movies and ones have the power to move things with their thoughts such as a chair, that would be what Jehovah in a very small sense does with his spirit. Again humans do not have that power but spiritual beings do.
Originally posted by RJHindsCREATION
Yes, the Holy Spirit was there searching out what was being created.
Was it not the Son of God that created the the heavens and the earth?
Then who was this God the spoke the light into existence? Where was
God the Father?
The act of creating, or causing the existence of, someone or something. It can also refer to that which has been created or brought into existence. The Hebrew bara’; and the Greek ktizo, both meaning “create,” are used exclusively with reference to divine creation.
Throughout the Scriptures Jehovah God is identified as the Creator. He is “the Creator of the heavens, . . . the Former of the earth and the Maker of it.” (Isa 45:18) He is “the Former of the mountains and the Creator of the wind” (Am 4:13) and is “the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them.” (Ac 4:24; 14:15; 17:24) “God . . . created all things.” (Eph 3:9) Jesus Christ recognized Jehovah as the One who created humans, making them male and female. (Mt 19:4; Mr 10:6)
(((((((( Notice here in Matt and Mark Jesus acknowledges that it was God, Jehovah that created even man and woman. If it was Jesus himself that created them he would have said that in these scriptures.))))))))
Hence, Jehovah is fittingly and uniquely called “the Creator.”—Isa 40:28.
It is because of God’s will that all things “existed and were created.” (Re 4:11) Jehovah, who has existed for all time, was alone before creation had a beginning.—Ps 90:1, 2; 1Ti 1:17.
While Jehovah, who is a Spirit (Joh 4:24; 2Co 3:17), has always existed, that is not true of the matter of which the universe is made. Hence, when creating the literal heavens and earth, Jehovah did not use preexistent material. This is clear from Genesis 1:1, which says: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” If matter had always existed, it would have been inappropriate to use the term “beginning” with reference to material things. However, after creating the earth, God did form “from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens.” (Ge 2:19) He also formed man “out of dust from the ground,” blowing into his nostrils the breath of life so that the man became a living soul.—Ge 2:7.
Appropriately Psalm 33:6 says: “By the word of Jehovah the heavens themselves were made, and by the spirit of his mouth all their army.”
((((((((( Notice this point here in Psalms where it says by the SPIRIT of his mouth or by what God says or wishes. It's not some other part of God that went over the surface of the earth but the spirit of his mouth or his thought.))))))).
While the earth was yet “formless and waste,” with “darkness upon the surface of the watery deep,” it was God’s active force that was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters. (Ge 1:2) Thus, God used his active force, or “spirit” (Heb., ru′ach), to accomplish his creative purpose. The things he has created testify not only to his power but also to his Godship. (Jer 10:12; Ro 1:19, 20) And, as Jehovah “is a God, not of disorder, but of peace” (1Co 14:33), his creative work is marked with orderliness rather than chaos or chance. Jehovah reminded Job that He had taken specific steps in founding the earth and barricading the sea and indicated that there exist “statutes of the heavens.” (Job 38:1, 4-11, 31-33) Furthermore, God’s creative and other works are perfect.—De 32:4; Ec 3:14.
Jehovah’s first creation was his “only-begotten Son” (Joh 3:16), “the beginning of the creation by God.” (Re 3:14) This one, “the firstborn of all creation,” was used by Jehovah in creating all other things, those in the heavens and those upon the earth, “the things visible and the things invisible.” (Col 1:15-17) John’s inspired testimony concerning this Son, the Word, is that “all things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence,” and the apostle identifies the Word as Jesus Christ, who had become flesh. (Joh 1:1-4, 10, 14, 17) As wisdom personified, this One is represented as saying, “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way,” and he tells of his association with God the Creator as Jehovah’s “master worker.” (Pr 8:12, 22-31) In view of the close association of Jehovah and his only-begotten Son in creative activity and because that Son is “the image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15; 2Co 4:4), it was evidently to His only-begotten Son and master worker that Jehovah spoke in saying, “Let us make man in our image.”—Ge 1:26.
After creating his only-begotten Son, Jehovah used him in bringing the heavenly angels into existence. This preceded the founding of the earth, as Jehovah revealed when questioning Job and asking him: “Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth . . . when the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause?” (Job 38:4-7) It was after the creation of these heavenly spirit creatures that the material heavens and earth and all elements were made, or brought into existence. And, since Jehovah is the one primarily responsible for all this creative work, it is ascribed to him.—Ne 9:6; Ps 136:1, 5-9.
The Scriptures, in stating, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Ge 1:1), leave matters indefinite as to time. This use of the term “beginning” is therefore unassailable, regardless of the age scientists may seek to attach to the earthly globe and to the various planets and other heavenly bodies. The actual time of creation of the material heavens and earth may have been billions of years ago.
Originally posted by galveston75You keep forgetting that Jesus was both son of man and Son of God.
CREATION
The act of creating, or causing the existence of, someone or something. It can also refer to that which has been created or brought into existence. The Hebrew bara’; and the Greek ktizo, both meaning “create,” are used exclusively with reference to divine creation.
Throughout the Scriptures Jehovah God is identified as the Creator. He is “th ...[text shortened]... actual time of creation of the material heavens and earth may have been billions of years ago.
It has already been pointed out to you that the Son created everything
that was created and Jehovah was another name the Son gave Himself
when He talked to Moses. You seem to be really confused and very
forgetful.
Originally posted by galveston75You keep forgetting that Jesus was both son of man and Son of God.
CREATION
The act of creating, or causing the existence of, someone or something. It can also refer to that which has been created or brought into existence. The Hebrew bara’; and the Greek ktizo, both meaning “create,” are used exclusively with reference to divine creation.
Throughout the Scriptures Jehovah God is identified as the Creator. He is “th ...[text shortened]... actual time of creation of the material heavens and earth may have been billions of years ago.
It has already been pointed out to you that the Son created everything
that was created and Jehovah was another name the Son gave Himself
when He talked to Moses. You seem to be really confused and very
forgetful.
Originally posted by galveston75You keep forgetting that Jesus was both son of man and Son of God.
CREATION
The act of creating, or causing the existence of, someone or something. It can also refer to that which has been created or brought into existence. The Hebrew bara’; and the Greek ktizo, both meaning “create,” are used exclusively with reference to divine creation.
Throughout the Scriptures Jehovah God is identified as the Creator. He is “th ...[text shortened]... actual time of creation of the material heavens and earth may have been billions of years ago.
It has already been pointed out to you that the Son created everything
that was created and Jehovah was another name the Son gave Himself
when He talked to Moses. You seem to be really confused and very
forgetful.
P.S. Satan, I think is trying to prevent me from posting this. I keep
pressing the Post button and nothing happens. I will try again.
Originally posted by RJHindsLol..I hate that when it happens. Ok...why do you not see the conflict in using the word SON? I am a son of another man just as you are the son of another man. But we are not the same persons as our fathers. Right? Was Jesus not the son of a human, his mother Mary? Right? But he was not the same being as his mother Mary. 2 different individuals. Right? The Bible over and over and over and over says Jesus is the SON of his Father. Right? Do you see the pattern here? A son is not ever the same being as his father, so following along that same line of reasoning, Jesus is called the SON of God, so that would mean they are not the same being. If the word SON were not used in describing Jesus over and over and over throughout your Bible...you might have a slight chance of an argument. But you have none.
You keep forgetting that Jesus was both son of man and Son of God.
It has already been pointed out to you that the Son created everything
that was created and Jehovah was another name the Son gave Himself
when He talked to Moses. You seem to be really confused and very
forgetful.
P.S. Satan, I think is trying to prevent me from posting this. I keep
pressing the Post button and nothing happens. I will try again.
God created many sons both spiritually and fleshly but the one difference about Jesus is, he is called the "Only Begotten Son" or his first son.
I feel like a broken record but why is the Holy Spirit never called a son or a father of any kind?
And the only thing I'm confused over is the trinity. Never has and never will make sense because it can't. If it made sense from our viewpoint then you'd have to take out 90% of the Bible that speaks of Jehovah and Jesus as two seperate individuals.
And where exactly does it say that Jesus was originally Jehovah but changed his name when he came to earth?
And I believe Robbie showed you a few scriptures where Jesus did refer to the old testiment that directly used Jehovahs name. Did you miss those?
And it would seem to me that if he did for some reason change his name, I think he would have told someone. The bible describes God as a God of Truth and not confusion. So I would also think Jesus would have clearified that in advance for us, and also the apostles never asked that question about his name. They knew clearly who Jesus was.
“Trinity” in the Bible?
A PROTESTANT publication states: “The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.” (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.
The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [trias] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian.”
However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity. The Catholic work Trinitas—A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian’s words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: “But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology.”
Testimony of the Hebrew Scriptures?
WHILE the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, is at least the idea of the Trinity taught clearly in it? For instance, what do the Hebrew Scriptures (“Old Testament&rdquo😉 reveal?
The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: “Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.” And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament].”
Similarly, in his book The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: “The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the “Old Testament”] suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.”—Italics ours.
An examination of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves will bear out these comments. Thus, there is no clear teaching of a Trinity in the first 39 books of the Bible that make up the true canon of the inspired Hebrew Scriptures.
Testimony of the Greek Scriptures
WELL, then, do the Christian Greek Scriptures (“New Testament&rdquo😉 speak clearly of a Trinity?
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: “Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.”
Jesuit Fortman states: “The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.”
The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.”
Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.”
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: “The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. ‘The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence’ [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth].”
Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: “To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it.”—Origin and Evolution of Religion.
Historian Arthur Weigall notes: “Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
Thus, neither the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures nor the canon of 27 inspired books of the Christian Greek Scriptures provide any clear teaching of the Trinity.
Taught by Early Christians?
DID the early Christians teach the Trinity? Note the following comments by historians and theologians:
“Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds.”—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.
“The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the . . . Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One.”—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
“At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings.”—Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics.
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. . . . Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.
Remember Jesus warned of false teachings filtering into the congregations sometime after his death..........
Originally posted by galveston75It is quite clear from the New Testament that the Father is not the Son
Lol..I hate that when it happens. Ok...why do you not see the conflict in using the word SON? I am a son of another man just as you are the son of another man. But we are not the same persons as our fathers. Right? Was Jesus not the son of a human, his mother Mary? Right? But he was not the same being as his mother Mary. 2 different individuals. Right? T lso the apostles never asked that question about his name. They knew clearly who Jesus was.
and the Son is not the Father. It is also clear that neither the Father
or the Son is the Holy Spirit. These three are defined as three separate
persons by both the New Testament and the Trinity Doctrine. It is not I
that is saying that the Son is the Father or the Father is the Son. You
must be thinking of someone else. What I have pointed out to you was
that when the Son of God was talking to Moses, He informed Moses that
He had been known by other names, but by the name YHWH He was not
known. This name is used in the shortened form YH in other places in the
Holy Bible. In pronouncing it the vowel "A" is added and we get YAH.
We see this name in "HalleluYAH" meaning "Praise YAH" and generally
translated into English as "Praise the Lord". I have also pointed out that
Jesus derived from the Greek is actually "YAHshua" in the Hebrew. It
means "YAH saves". So it is us who have changed His name with "Jesus"
and "Jehovah". In the Old Testament the Son of God's name was changed
by the translators to "Jehovah" and in the New Testament to "Jesus". But
his name was "YAH" both in the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible.
It is proved by the praise "HalleluYAH" since YAH is usually changed to
"the Lord" and this is used to describe the Son of God in both the Old and
New Testaments alike. I hope I have repeated this enough that you hear
and see the truth.
Originally posted by RJHindsWhat scripture are you referring to with Jesus talking to Moses? And are you now saying the trinity doctrine is false teaching?
It is quite clear from the New Testament that the Father is not the Son
and the Son is not the Father. It is also clear that neither the Father
or the Son is the Holy Spirit. These three are defined as three separate
persons by both the New Testament and the Trinity Doctrine. It is not I
that is saying that the Son is the Father or the Father is the S ...[text shortened]... I hope I have repeated this enough that you hear
and see the truth.