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Originally posted by RJHindsSo what makes you think this was Jesus speaking?
Check Exodus 3:14-15 and 6:2-3. I'm saying your understanding of the
Trinity Doctrine is a false teaching.
This is clearly God speaking, not God's son.
There is actually no indication that Jesus ever spoke to any humans before he came to earth and was born a man.
Exodus 3:14-15
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 God said to Moses, “[a](A)I AM WHO [b]I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘[c]I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘(B)The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My (C)memorial-name [d]to all generations.
Footnotes:
a.Exodus 3:14 Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be
b.Exodus 3:14 Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be
c.Exodus 3:14 Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be
d.Exodus 3:15 Lit to generation of generation
Exodus 6:2-3
Good News Translation (GNT)
God Calls Moses
2 (A)God spoke to Moses and said,
I am the Lord.3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Almighty God, but I did not make myself known to them by my holy name, the Lord.[a]
Jesus is never referred to as "Almighty God". Only Jehovah is. If this was Jesus speaking to Moses ,the scripture would say so. It doesn't.
So my understanding is a false teaching? I have no idea what you mean by that. But either you believe in a trinity belief or you don't. I'm still unclear either you do our not. It seems you've argued for it for weeks now but now your saying Jesus and God who is really Jehovah are not the same.
So clear it up for us....
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Originally posted by galveston75===================================
So what makes you think this was Jesus speaking?
This is clearly God speaking, not God's son.
There is actually no indication that Jesus ever spoke to any humans before he came to earth and was born a man.
Exodus 3:14-15
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 God said to Moses, “[a](A)I AM WHO [b]I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the saying Jesus and God who is really Jehovah are not the same.
So clear it up for us....
Jesus is never referred to as "Almighty God". Only Jehovah is. If this was Jesus speaking to Moses ,the scripture would say so. It doesn't.
========================================== [/b]
Jehovah says that besides Him there is no God, period.
"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,
I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isa. 44:6)
Right away, any theory that the Logos was another God, or that the Son is another God, is wrong. Besides Jehovah there is no God. Don't fall back on "many gods" or "the god of this age".
Is there a First before THE First ?
Is there a Last after THE Last ?
No. Jehovah God is THE First, the one and ONLY First.
Jehovah God is THE Last, the one and ONLY Last.
Now we see Christ is Jehovah God mingled with man, God incarnated. And He is still the First and the Last. He is not a secondary First and a secondary Last. Such a thought is rediculous.
"And in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man ... And when I saw Him [the Son of Man] , I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:13,17,18)
The Son of Man who became dead and is alive forever and ever is "the First and the Last" . He is Jehovah God of Isaiah 44:6 become a MAN.
There are not TWO Firsts and TWO Lasts.
Furthermore this Son of Man coming on the clouds is the Almighty:
"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him. Yes, amen.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the ALMIGHTY." (Rev. 1:7,8)
John sees Him come with the clouds to the Holy Land. All the tribes of the land see Him coming according to Zechariah's prophecy, and mourn for Him as an only son. And God the Almighty immediately confirms John's vision and prophecy saying that He is the one "who is coming, the Almighty."
Christ is God the Almighty who is First and Last and Alpha and Omega.
Now in Exodus, before the incarnation of God, Moses obeyed Jehovah, suffering the persecution of the Christ:
"By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharoah's daughter. Choosing rather to be ill treated with the people of God than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin, Considering the reproach of the Christ greater riches ththan the treasures of Egypt ..." (Hebrews 11:24,25)
It is no wonder then that God incarnate refered back to "the Christ" that Moses lived unto saying "Before Abraham came into being, I am" (John 8:58).
And Exodus 23 as well as many other places in the Old Testament, show an identification between Jehovah God and the Angel of Jehovah which is "organic" and interchangeable:
"I am now sending an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Be careful before Him, and listen to His voice; do not rebel against Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him."
For God's name to be in the Angel - " ... for My name is in Him" means that God is in Him Himself. He is God. He is the Triune God. And He has authority to forgive sin or not. The voice and leadership of the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah are indistinguishable in Exodus. "The Word was with God and the Word was God" (John1:1)
Concerning this Sent One - the Angel, God says to Moses:
"But if you will indeed listen to His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be ab enemy to your enemis and an adversary to your adversaries. For My Angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites ... etc. and I will cut them off." (See Exodus 23:22,23)
Because God is triune, the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah are "organically one" and interchangeable. One lives within the Other.
"And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush. And when he looked, there was the thornbush, burning with fire, but the thornbush was not consumed ... and when Jehovah saw that he [Moses] had turned aside to look, God called to him out of the mids of the thornbush and said Moses, Moses ... I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. And Jehovah said. I have surely seen the afffliction ..." (See Exodus 3:2 - 7)
WHO appeared to Moses ? - "And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him ..." (v.2)
WHAT did the Angel of Jehovah SAY ? - "And He said, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."
The God of Abraham was God ALMIGHTY (Genesis 17:1) .
From whom did Moses shield his eyes for fear - "And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God." (Exo. 3:6c)
"Apart from Me [Jehovah] THERE IS NO GOD" (Isa. 44:6)
The biblical basis for the Triune God is unshakable. And God is a trinity in order to dispense Himself into man, finally reaching man's inner being as the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Triune God.
Now Galvestson, you boast the surely Christ is the Wisdom of God as you understand in Proverbs 8. You have some ground to say that for the Apostle Paul says that Christ is the wisdom of God and the power of God:
"But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Cor. 1:24)
When was God without His wisdom ?
When was God without His power ?
As long as Jehovah God has been, Jehovah has possessed the Wisdom of God and Jehovah has possessed the Power of God. Do you not agree ?
Jehovah says that besides Him there is no God, period.
"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,
I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isa. 44:6)
Right away, any theory that the Logos was another God, or that the Son is another God, is wrong. Besides Jehovah there is no God. Don't fall back on "many gods" or "the god of this age".
Is there a First before THE First ?
Is there a Last after THE Last ?
No. Jehovah God is THE First, the one and ONLY First.
Jehovah God is THE Last, the one and ONLY Last.
Now we see Christ is Jehovah God mingled with man, God incarnated. And He is still the First and the Last. He is not a secondary First and a secondary Last. Such a thought is rediculous.
Where out of this statement you just posted does it say Jesus is Jehovah??????
What this is clearly saying about Jehovah is he has always existed and always will exist. Period.
And the scripture on Jehovah being the only God is simply saying there is no God that could ever challenge him with strength and might. But your Bible itself says there are many Gods. Correct? But they will never be "The Almighty God", not even Jesus who is also referred to in your Bible as a God..
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Originally posted by galveston75Christians must believe the Athanasian Creed which follows:
Jehovah says that besides Him there is no God, period.
"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,
I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isa. 44:6)
Right away, any theory that the Logos was another God, or that the Son is another God, is wrong. Besides Jehovah there is no God. Don' be "The Almighty God", not even Jesus who is also referred to in your Bible as a God..
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the
catholic (common) Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and
undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic
(common) Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in
Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is
one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one;
the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son;
and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the
Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy
Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost
eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are
not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite.
So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost
Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the
Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not
three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the
Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are
compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to
be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic (common) Religion; to
say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither
created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created;
but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made,
nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three
Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And
in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than
another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all
things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be
worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe
faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we
believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and
Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man,
of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man,
of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as
touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who
although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by
conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into
God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For
as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day
from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the
God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the
dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give
account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life
everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the
catholic (common) Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he
cannot be saved.
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Originally posted by galveston75The Almighty God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus (YAHshua)
Jehovah says that besides Him there is no God, period.
"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,
I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isa. 44:6)
Right away, any theory that the Logos was another God, or that the Son is another God, is wrong. Besides Jehovah there is no God. Don' be "The Almighty God", not even Jesus who is also referred to in your Bible as a God..
is both God and man. Jesus (YAHshua) is not a different God for there is only
one God as the Athanasian Creed states. So the God of the Old Testament
was the pre-incarnate Christ appearing as God to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
Then He appeared to Moses and gave His name YHWH. This could not have
been God the Father because the Father has never appeared to any man. No
man has seen the Father at any time according to Jesus (YAHshua). He also
declared himself to be the I AM (YAH) to the Pharisees, who attempted to
stone him for it. He also said that the Old Testament scriptures testified of
Him. It should be obvious that Jesus (YAHshua) of the New Testament is God
of the Old Testament known by Moses as I AM, YHWH, YAHWEH, YAH and to
us as I AM, Jehovah.
"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,
I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God."
(Isa. 44:6)
Who is King of Israel (King of the Jews) and the Redeemer, but Jesus
(YAHshua). Jehovah = Jesus
Originally posted by RJHindsSo who says this creed is true and from God? After all it can't be as it contradicts the Bible as the Bibe teaches no such thing. And this is very burdensome which is exactly what Jesus warned about and condemned the religious leaders of his time for doing. He said he would add no more burden.
Christians must believe the Athanasian Creed which follows:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the
catholic (common) Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and
undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic
(common) Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity i ...[text shortened]... the
catholic (common) Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he
cannot be saved.
So no, Christians are under no such law or burdens in order to gain life. Jesus said it's free. This creed is not free because if one does not follow it and it seems one would be condemned to death. Not a truth in the Bible at all.
I'm sorry your church leaders have done this to you and others who think this is the only way to be a Christain...
Originally posted by RJHindsYou still did not answer my question as to why Jesus never said he was really Jehovah?
The Almighty God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus (YAHshua)
is both God and man. Jesus (YAHshua) is not a different God for there is only
one God as the Athanasian Creed states. So the God of the Old Testament
was the pre-incarnate Christ appearing as God to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
Then He appeared to Moses and gave His name YHWH. ...[text shortened]... God
of the Old Testament known by Moses as I AM, YHWH, YAHWEH, YAH and to
us as I AM, Jehovah.
And what is the Holy Spirits name again? Oh..I forgot, he doesn't get one I guess.
Originally posted by galveston75There is no burden of work to do here. The only requirement is to believe
So who says this creed is true and from God? After all it can't be as it contradicts the Bible as the Bibe teaches no such thing. And this is very burdensome which is exactly what Jesus warned about and condemned the religious leaders of his time for doing. He said he would add no more burden.
So no, Christians are under no such law or burdens in order ...[text shortened]... leaders have done this to you and others who think this is the only way to be a Christain...
just as Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness. It
does not require any donation of time or effort to believe the creed, so how
is it a burden? Even if it is a burden, it must be classified as a light burden,
which Jesus said His burden was. Believing in Christ is the only way, for He
said, "I am the way, the truth, and the Life."
Originally posted by galveston75Did you not notice this sentence?
You still did not answer my question as to why Jesus never said he was really Jehovah?
And what is the Holy Spirits name again? Oh..I forgot, he doesn't get one I guess.
"He also declared himself to be the I AM (YAH) to the Pharisees, who
attempted to stone him." Don't you understand that 'I AM' is 'Jehovah'
of the Old Testament. (Exodus 3:14)
Originally posted by RJHindsIt's a burden for the masses that don't understand it or ever try to explain it as you and a couple others have tried but unable to in any kind of conviencing at all. It's also a serious burden when your church demands that you take a vow to that teaching no matter what or you'll be burning in some hell fire pit somewhere once you die.
There is no burden of work to do here. The only requirement is to believe
just as Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness. It
does not require any donation of time or effort to believe the creed, so how
is it a burden? Even if it is a burden, it must be classified as a light burden,
which Jesus said His burden was. Believing in Christ is the only way, for He
said, "I am the way, the truth, and the Life."
Many, many ex Catholics said they were scared to death with that issue and never felt a God of love would make such a demand of us and making something like the pagan trinity an issue, or else.
As I've said before most JW's came from other religions and most of those taught the trinity in one form or another and to the T, including my mother, knew that it never made sense and did not fit in at all with any part of the Bible.
So now millions of JW's have a crystal clear understanding of who Jehovah, Jesus and the holy spirit are.
The bible says the truth will set you free and it certianly has from that paganistic trinty joke.
Originally posted by RJHindsThat is not Jesus speaking...
Did you not notice this sentence?
"He also declared himself to be the I AM (YAH) to the Pharisees, who
attempted to stone him." Don't you understand that 'I AM' is 'Jehovah'
of the Old Testament. (Exodus 3:14)
So again show me a scripture where Jesus said I used to be Jehovah?????????????
Originally posted by galveston75If you believe it is such a great burden to believe in the Trininty, then
That is not Jesus speaking...
So again show me a scripture where Jesus said I used to be Jehovah?????????????
apparently there is nothing that I can say to help you see the truth. I
can not show you a scripture with the exact words you are looking for.
So I wish you well anyway.
Originally posted by RJHindsBut honestly don't you think with Jesus and his wisdom and understanding the future with what will happen with his Kingdom and with wanting to clearly teach his followers the truth about everything....he would have mentioned that little point?
If you believe it is such a great burden to believe in the Trininty, then
apparently there is nothing that I can say to help you see the truth. I
can not show you a scripture with the exact words you are looking for.
So I wish you well anyway.
But I don't know how much of what I post you actually read, but you really should read it all. Especially all the threads that are not from the JW's. The proof is there if you really want it. If your willing to settle for mans ideas instead of the truth that's your decision..
Originally posted by galveston75I think I will just settle for the truth. But since we can not agree on what
But honestly don't you think with Jesus and his wisdom and understanding the future with what will happen with his Kingdom and with wanting to clearly teach his followers the truth about everything....he would have mentioned that little point?
But I don't know how much of what I post you actually read, but you really should read it all. Especially all ...[text shortened]... ant it. If your willing to settle for mans ideas instead of the truth that's your decision..
that is, then we will have to leave it up to Jesus to decide who is believing
in man's ideas and who is believing in God or if we are both wrong.