Originally posted by galveston75==============================================
Jehovah says that besides Him there is no God, period.
"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,
I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isa. 44:6)
Right away, any theory that the Logos was another God, or that the Son is another God, is wrong. Besides Jehovah there is no God. Don' ...[text shortened]... be "The Almighty God", not even Jesus who is also referred to in your Bible as a God..
Where out of this statement you just posted does it say Jesus is Jehovah??????
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If you couldn't see it in all that I expounded the "light" in you is really darkness. How great is the darkness.
Now, out of all the statements you have written on this Forum for the past years which Bible statement says Jesus is the archangel Michael ??????
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Originally posted by jaywillYou haven't proved anything with showing Jesus and Jehovah are the same.....
[b]==============================================
Where out of this statement you just posted does it say Jesus is Jehovah??????
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If you couldn't see it in all that I expounded the "light" in you is really darkness. How great is the darkness.
Now, out of all the statements you have ...[text shortened]... his Forum for the past years which Bible statement says Jesus is the archangel Michael ??????[/b]
ARCHANGEL
The prefix “arch,” meaning “chief” or “principal,” implies that there is only one archangel, the chief angel; in the Scriptures, “archangel” is never found in the plural. First Thessalonians 4:16, in speaking of the preeminence of the archangel and the authority of his office, does so in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” It is, therefore, not without significance that the only name directly associated with the word “archangel” is Michael.—Jude 9
MICHAEL
(Michael) [Who Is Like God].
1. The only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called “archangel.” (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in the tenth chapter of Daniel, where Michael is described as “one of the foremost princes”; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by “the prince of the royal realm of Persia.” Michael was called “the prince of [Daniel’s] people,” “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that “Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body.”—Jude 9.
Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God’s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be “the archangel,” meaning “chief angel,” or “principal angel.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular. This seems to imply that there is but one whom God has designated chief, or head, of the angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ is described as being that of an archangel, suggesting that he is, in fact, himself the archangel.
This text depicts him as descending from heaven with “a commanding call.” It is only logical, therefore, that the voice expressing this commanding call be described by a word that would not diminish or detract from the great authority that Christ Jesus now has as King of kings and Lord of lords. (Mt 28:18; Re 17:14) If the designation “archangel” applied, not to Jesus Christ, but to other angels, then the reference to “an archangel’s voice” would not be appropriate. In that case it would be describing a voice of lesser authority than that of the Son of God.
There are also other correspondencies establishing that Michael is actually the Son of God. Daniel, after making the first reference to Michael (Da 10:13), recorded a prophecy reaching down to “the time of the end” (Da 11:40) and then stated: “And during that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 12:1) Michael’s ‘standing up’ was to be associated with “a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time.” (Da 12:1) In Daniel’s prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers to the action of a king, either taking up his royal power or acting effectively in his capacity as king. (Da 11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21) This supports the conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ, since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King, commissioned to destroy all the nations at Har–Magedon.—Re 11:15; 16:14-16.
The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12) specifically mentions Michael in connection with the establishment of God’s Kingdom and links this event with trouble for the earth: “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down . . . On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea.’” Jesus Christ is later depicted as leading the heavenly armies in war against the nations of the earth. (Re 19:11-16) This would mean a period of distress for them, which would logically be included in the “time of distress” that is associated with Michael’s standing up. (Da 12:1) Since the Son of God is to fight the nations, it is only reasonable that he was the one who with his angels earlier battled against the superhuman dragon, Satan the Devil, and his angels.
In his prehuman existence Jesus was called “the Word.” (Joh 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Ac 9:5), “the Word” shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) “The Word of God” (Re 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator.
I know you'll disagree with this explination and all the scriptures quoted here because of that darn trinity thing again. It really messes up the truth of the scriptures for you guys.
Originally posted by galveston75The Spirit of God is synonymous with well......God LOL you are truly blinded by the God of this world. This bit of scripture is beautiful and even majestic as the God of creation is as RJ said surveying as it were His work. I also don't believe the spirit is "a" God but is The one and only triune God.
No it doesn't say that at all Manny. It does not say it is God but it says it is the "spirit of God." If the spirit is a God as you believe then it would simple say God was moving over the surface of the earth, but it does not say that.
Until you understand what is clearly says here you'll never understand what that spirit is.
Again Jehovah is a spi ...[text shortened]... ense does with his spirit. Again humans do not have that power but spiritual beings do.
Manny
Originally posted by menace71OK whatever. One day Manny I truly hope you'll truely pray to Jehovah "through Jesus" for the truth on this. But then I guess you could pray through the Holy Spirit or you could pray thru Jehovah to Jesus or through Jehovah to the Holy Spirit as they are all the one and the same to you.
The Spirit of God is synonymous with well......God LOL you are truly blinded by the God of this world. This bit of scripture is beautiful and even majestic as the God of creation is as RJ said surveying as it were His work. I also don't believe the spirit is "a" God but is The one and only triune God.
Manny
But just to help, "pray thru Jesus to Jehovah" with your heart open and maybe if you're really wanting to get clear on this, Jehovah will answer you.
"Only those who call on the name of the LORD "Jehovah" will be saved." Just give it a try from your heart. What have you got to lose???
Originally posted by galveston75You did not give a verse that says, "Jesus is Michael the Archangel" just
You haven't proved anything with showing Jesus and Jehovah are the same.....
ARCHANGEL
The prefix “arch,” meaning “chief” or “principal,” implies that there is only one archangel, the chief angel; in the Scriptures, “archangel” is never found in the plural. First Thessalonians 4:16, in speaking of the preeminenc ...[text shortened]... f that darn trinity thing again. It really messes up the truth of the scriptures for you guys.
as I can not give you a verse that says, "Jesus is Jehovah" as you
requested. The point is that not everything written in the Holy Bible is
that straight forward as you and I would like it to be. However, God
gave us an intellect and expects us to use it. I have given evidence
that Jehovah was the name of the pre-incarnate Christ, Jesus. You
refuse to except the evidence.
You have given what you think is evidence that Jesus is Michael the
Archangel. So let me go over why this is erroneous evidence and why
it is clear that Jesus was never Michael the Archangel. First, Daniel 10:13
specifically calls Michael "one of the chief princes", this indicates that he
is one among a group of chief princes and is not unique. By contrast the
Greek word used to describe Jesus in John 3:16 is 'monogenes', which
means 'unique' - 'one of a kind'. Jesus is never call 'chief prince', but in
Revelation 19:16 Jesus is referred to as "King of kings and Lord of lords".
Second, Hebrews 1:5 - 2:18 reveals the superiority of Jesus the Christ
over the angels. God has never call an angel His begotten Son. (Heb. 1:5)
God commanded the angels to worship His only begotten Son. (Heb. 1:6)
God says the world to come will not be in subjection to angels. (Heb. 2:5)
That is because it will be Jesus who will rule as King. Third, 1 Thess. 4:16
does not necessarily mean that the archangel's voice is that of Michael,
since he is one of a group of archangels and even if it were then that
would only indicate that Michael was with Jesus. Jewish tradition has
always held that there are seven archangels. Don't forget Jesus also had
God's trumpet. Fourth, the archangel Michael did not have the authority
to rebuke Satan. (Jude 9) Jesus does rebuke Satan the devil. (Mark 8:33;
Matthew 4:10; 16;23) When Michael said, "the Lord rebuke you," he was
appealing to the Lord of the universe, Jesus. Michael is never called
"Lord". Fifth, Michael the archangel is a created being and as such was
created by the Son of God, Jesus. (Colossians 1:16-17)
Finally, Hebrews 1:10-12 is actually a quotation from Psalm 102:25-27.
The words is the psalm are addressed to Jehovah and in Hebrews they
are applied directly to Jesus. Another argument that Jesus is Jehovah.
Originally posted by RJHindsIt is strongly suggested by scripture and is consistant with other scriptures.
You did not give a verse that says, "Jesus is Michael the Archangel" just
as I can not give you a verse that says, "Jesus is Jehovah" as you
requested. The point is that not everything written in the Holy Bible is
that straight forward as you and I would like it to be. However, God
gave us an intellect and expects us to use it. I have given evidence
...[text shortened]...
are applied directly to Jesus. Another argument that Jesus is Jehovah.
The issue with Jesus being Jehovah has absolutly no scriptural foundation at all. There is not 1 scripture that even slightly suggest that and in fact as I stated to you before as well as Robbie..Jesus makes many, many referances to the Hebrew scriptures that do use Jehovah's name and not once did he happen to mention, "Oh, by the way, that's me".
And the completely obvious statements throughout the Bible where Jesus describes his Father as being a totally seperate being and not being equal to him in power or glory.
But as you keep showing you completely ignor 95% of the Bible that proves that......
And the 2 scriptures at the end of you post here are both speaking of Jehovah. Why do you think one is for Jehovah and the other for Jesus? Is not the scripture here in Hebrews Jesus speaking of his Father Jehovah? Did he say I am speaking of myself? Wouldn't that have been a good chance to say that and clearify that if that were the case?
Go back to Heb 1:1-4 and get the meaning of these verses. Also does not verse 4 say Jesus "became better" then the angels? But according to you and the trinity Jesus is God and has always been. Right? How do you explain that at one time Jesus was as described here as an angel but then because of his actions, was rewarded to "become better" then the angels around him???????????
It still amazes me how you pick out scriptures that you think shows the trinity but then you ignor ones right next to it that completely disprove it.
So please explain this verse to me here at Heb 1:4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by galveston75I understand now that it would do no good to explain anything about
It is strongly suggested by scripture and is consistant with other scriptures.
The issue with Jesus being Jehovah has absolutly no scriptural foundation at all. There is not 1 scripture that even slightly suggest that and in fact as I stated to you before as well as Robbie..Jesus makes many, many referances to the Hebrew scriptures that do use Jehovah' ...[text shortened]... So please explain this verse to me here at Heb 1:4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the Bible to you, since you think you already have all the answers.
Using your figures, you completely ignore 95% of the explanations I
give you anyway. This is proven by the fact that you ask questions
that I have already answered.
Originally posted by RJHindsPlease answer Heb 1:4 for me......
I understand now that it would do no good to explain anything about
the Bible to you, since you think you already have all the answers.
Using your figures, you completely ignore 95% of the explanations I
give you anyway. This is proven by the fact that you ask questions
that I have already answered.
Originally posted by galveston75I doubt that you will because it along with hundreds of other scriptures really put a hole in the trinity theory. But I hope you or anyone else gives it a try.
Please answer Heb 1:4 for me......
Heb 1:4 states:
Hebrews 1:3-4
New Century Version (NCV)
3 The Son reflects the glory of God and shows exactly what God is like. He holds everything together with his powerful word. When the Son made people clean from their sins, he sat down at the right side of God, the Great One in heaven.
4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than theirs.
Jesus "became" greater then the angels and was given a better position after he was resurrected. So this clearly would mean before he earned this new position and honor he was at one point in his existance in a lower position. How could he be God with this description?
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Originally posted by galveston75Chapters 1 through 4 of Hebrew deals with the fact that the person of
Please answer Heb 1:4 for me......
Jesus the Christ is superior to the prophets, superior to the angels,
superior to the fathers (Abraham, Moses, Joshua), and superior to the
priests.
Hebrews 1:1-2 deals with His superiority over the inspired prophets,
who were used in the past to speak to man for God the Father. The
prophets gave the people the truth in parts. Jesus the Christ has
come to reveal the truth in full for He speaks not only for God the
Father but as God the Son. For it was through the Son that the world
was made and He, being the Son of God, is the heir to all things.
Hebrews 1:3 indicates the Son is the exact image and radiance of the
Glory of the Father. That is, He rpresents the exact nature or essential
being of God the Father. He also upholds all things by the word of His
power making Him, Almighty. How could any person be more powerful
that this? He purged our sins and with this satisfaction He sat down at
the right hand of the Father in the place of honor.
Hebrews 1:4 indicates His superiority over the angels. The Son of God
had to also become son of man in order to purge our sins. As son of man,
Jesus aquired His superiority over the angels as a result of his crucifixion,
resurrection, ascension, and exaltation as Lord and Christ. For in His
incarnation he was made for a little while lower than the angels for the
suffering and death. As the Son of God He already had an inherent
superiority over the angels for He had a more excellent name that any of
the angels. That name is the only begotten Son of God.
No Jesus could not possibly be Michael the archangel. It is unfortunate
that the translators chose the words 'chief princes' in their translation
of Daniel 10:13 when they could have used the words 'generals' or
"commanders' since Michael is seen as a commander of God's army of
angels in the war against Satan the dragon and his army of angels in
Revelation 12:7.
Hebrews 1:3 indicates the Son is the exact image and radiance of the
Glory of the Father. That is, He rpresents the exact nature or essential
being of God the Father. He also upholds all things by the word of His
power making Him, Almighty. How could any person be more powerful
that this? He purged our sins and with this satisfaction He sat down at
the right hand of the Father in the place of honor.
Hebrews 1:4 indicates His superiority over the angels. The Son of God
had to also become son of man in order to purge our sins. As son of man,
Jesus aquired His superiority over the angels as a result of his crucifixion,
resurrection, ascension, and exaltation as Lord and Christ. For in His
incarnation he was made for a little while lower than the angels for the
suffering and death. As the Son of God He already had an inherent
superiority over the angels for He had a more excellent name that any of
the angels. That name is the only begotten Son of God.
Ok let's try this again with another translation. And notice it's not our NWT.
Hebrews 1:3-4
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
3 His Son is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact likeness of God’s being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he received the highest position, the one next to the Father in
4 The Son has become greater than the angels since he has been given a name that is superior to theirs.
Verse 3 says he is what? "He is the exact image and radiance of his Father." But why is it said like this? If he was God himself he would simple say he is God. But it doesn't. It is explaining he is exactly like God in what he stands for, teaches, his goals and what he tells us God has planned for us just as the Word should. It "does not" an any way shape or form say he is God. And yes his Father is mightier and stronger then Jesus but that does not take away from what Jesus has accomplished or means to us. Why can't that be understood? Jesus says in the Bible his Father is the one to be worshipped and him alone. Why can that not be understood?
He takes a seat NEXT to his Father. Not "is the Father" but NEXT to his Father. Where again is the Holy Spirit sitting? No mention to him here. Why?
Ok now to verse 4. He was given a name superiour to the angels. But why isn't his name superiour to all as in superiour to Jehovah's? And who again gave him that name? If Jesus was in heaven whay did he have to be given that name? If he was God he would just pick a name he wanted and be done with it. But someone who had the authority or more authority then he had, gave it to him.
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Originally posted by galveston75The entire discussion is moot for several reasons. The most important being that Christ is not the raw Jehovah but the processed Jehovah.
Hebrews 1:3 indicates the Son is the exact image and radiance of the
Glory of the Father. That is, He rpresents the exact nature or essential
being of God the Father. He also upholds all things by the word of His
power making Him, Almighty. How could any person be more powerful
that this? He purged our sins and with this satisfaction He sat down it. But someone who had the authority or more authority then he had, gave it to him.
Christ is Jehovah gone through a process in order to mingle with man and be dispensed into man.
"The Word became flesh" (John 1:14) This speaks of God passing through a process of incarnation.
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) This also speaks of Jehovah gone through a process in order to be imparted INTO man as divine life.
You know nothing about the economy of God dispensing Himself. You are like the Moslem who only knows of a God outward, out there, and far away.
You are not clear about redemption as a result of God having passed through the process of incarnation. Nor are you a believer in life imparation by means of Jehovah as a resurrected man becoming a life giving Spirit.
Another reason you disussion is moot is because of verses 10-12:
"And, You in the beginning, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain perpetually, and they all will become old like a garment. And like a mantle you will roll them up, like a garment they will also be changed; but You are the same, and Your years will not end."
The writer of the book of Hebrews is applying these three verses to the Son. There is absolutely no ground for argument about that. These passages are quoted from the Old Testament in reference, by the writer of Hebrews, to the Son of God.
Now when we go back to check the source of this quotation, it is Psalm 102
THE ENTIRE PSALM 102 is a Psalm of praise to JEHOVAH. There is no ground for dispute that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the author of the book of Hebrews is applying Psalm 102, a praise of Jehovah, to the Son of God:
Some selected passages from this Psalm 102:
" O Jehovah, hear my prayer and let my cry come unto You (v.1)
But You, O Jehovah, abide forever; and your memorial is from generation to generation. (v.12)
This will be written for a generation to come, and a people to be created will praise Jehovah.( v.18)
For He has looked down from the height of His santuary; From heaven Jehovah beheld the earth (v.19)
That in the name of Jehovah may be declared in Zion, and His praise in Jerusalem (v.21)
Of old You laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands, (25)
They will perish, but You endure; Indeed all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them, And they will be changed. (v.26)
But You are the same, And Your years are without end. " (v.27)
Regardless of any kind of rationals you see to deny the Son is Jehovah God, by refering to anything else in Hebrews chapter 1, the fact remains that in the author's mind Psalm 102 a praise of Jehovah, is a psalm about the Son of God.
There is no recourse open to you except to say that the writer of the book of Hebrews was WRONG and that you know better than he did. I reject that outright.
The SON who is the effulgence of God's glory and the impress of His substance who was made a little lower than the angels, who died a redemptive death, who sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high, who has a better name than the angels, and is the Firstborn to come again into the earth is the God who is praised in Psalm 102.
That PSALM 102, a praise to Jehovah, says the writer of Hebrews under divine inspiration, is ABOUT Christ.
The biblical basis of the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, is firmly established in the Bible.
Originally posted by galveston75I understand perfectly well that the Son of God is not the Father.
Hebrews 1:3 indicates the Son is the exact image and radiance of the
Glory of the Father. That is, He rpresents the exact nature or essential
being of God the Father. He also upholds all things by the word of His
power making Him, Almighty. How could any person be more powerful
that this? He purged our sins and with this satisfaction He sat down ...[text shortened]... it. But someone who had the authority or more authority then he had, gave it to him.
I am not trying to convince you that the Son is the Father, that is
ridiculous. For us humans, when a father begets a son, it is done
through the mother. The son may be in the image of the father;
but he is still not the father and they are both human. That is,
man begets man in a fleshy body. But apparently there is a
difference in how God begets. He was able to begat a Son and
no mother was necessary. For John 1:1 says the Word was with
God and the word was God. We find out later that the Word is
the Son of God. So just as man begets man, God begets God but
there is no division as with man. There is not two Gods but One
God. God had to use the human mother Mary to beget a human
son, but the difference is that the Father was God and so the Son
was both human and divine. The Son is not half God and half man,
but fully God and fully man. A mystery that we humans can not
fully understand. So the Son of God allowed Himself to become the
son of man so that He could reconcile the world back to the Father.
I don't believe Jesus said to worship the Father only. If you check
it out I think you will see He said to worship God only. And God is
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Father has commanded that the Son be worshipped.
The Holy Spirit does not do any sitting. He is continually active.
Philippians 2:9-10 states, "Therefore God highly exalted Him, and
bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at
the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in
heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue
should confess that Jesus Chris is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
So His name is superior to every name including Jehovah.
Originally posted by galveston75OK Whatever.............Nice 🙂 Anyway your absolutely right I can pray to Jesus to the father and He will Honor my prayer.
OK whatever. One day Manny I truly hope you'll truely pray to Jehovah "through Jesus" for the truth on this. But then I guess you could pray through the Holy Spirit or you could pray thru Jehovah to Jesus or through Jehovah to the Holy Spirit as they are all the one and the same to you.
But just to help, "pray thru Jesus to Jehovah" with your heart op ...[text shortened]... ovah" will be saved." Just give it a try from your heart. What have you got to lose???
Manny
Originally posted by menace71But if they are the same why do we pray thru Jesus? Why is that necassary? Why not just pray to God as was done before Jesus came to earth? Why did that process of prayer change?
OK Whatever.............Nice 🙂 Anyway your absolutely right I can pray to Jesus to the father and He will Honor my prayer.
Manny
And why do we not pray to or thru the holy spirit? Why didn't Jesus say to pray thu the holy spirit? Is the holy spirit not important enough to pray thru or to?
You see guys Jesus said for all who want to pray to God or the Father to pray thru him and him "only". Right? Doesn't your bibles say that? He also said his Father is the only one to pray to. Not to Jesus, not to the holy spirit or as far as that goes not to Mary or some saint. To God only and only thru Jesus with NO exceptions at all!
So again........why do we not pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit but to God ( Jehovah ) only as Jesus commanded?
Could it be because they are not the same being but seperate. Could it be because as your bible says he is now the mediator between God and man? But if Jesus is God, why the position as a mediator? Why not just pray to Jesus?
Think, think, think!!!!!!