Divorced after 25 happy years

@divegeester said
You have a very limited understanding of natural selection, in fact I’d say you have no understanding of it.

You really shouldn't go there unless you can answer the questions already offered
about informational instructions and biological mechanisms, you got nothing, and I
mean that quite literally. Natural selection can't build and create anything new; it can
only weed out.

@fmf said
If this is not just you being disingenuous, then it is progress. Welcome progress. Only a few weeks ago, you were still insisting that your beliefs and opinions were "objective" truths.

When you insist that what you have come to understand is the truth, then it is you
who are suggesting your opinions are objective truths, and those that disagree with
you are in error; the shoe is on the other foot. Your lack of understanding shows;
since you can go back to the things I have been saying for years, and you will see
that even if we proclaim the truth about something, it is still us making claims if we
are right or wrong. If you are starting to see that, now you making progress after
how many years? When I apply your so-called objective truths to your past, you get
bent out of shape, you want it both ways.

@divegeester said
I would estimate that at least 75% of your posts are lacking in substance.

Says the guy who thinks when scripture says 'we' and 'us,' it is a singular pronoun.

@kellyjay said
That isn't true, but I can say the same thing about you. When I have asked about
the material and immaterial world, questions about the beginning, and give you
Chemists to listen to your so-called evidence on evolution, you went silent. The only
thing YOU or anyone of here can do is express our views and opinions; you didn't
answer my queries on stop-starts and error che ...[text shortened]... hat is a plausible answer. If you are going to get on me
for the things you do, look in the mirror.

So now you are saying things about me which even you don't believe are true. Nature has no mind, nature needs no mind; there are fundamental things about genetics and evolution that you clearly don't understand, and until you do we're both wasting our time.

@indonesia-phil said
So now you are saying things about me which even you don't believe are true. Nature has no mind, nature needs no mind; there are fundamental things about genetics and evolution that you clearly don't understand, and until you do we're both wasting our time.

You said nature did the coding, didn't you? Right after, I talked about how coding
required a mind for the functionally complex work done in life through instructional
information. Well, maybe I'm wrong, you think the instructions found in life that
direct all of the processes can happen without a mind or intellect to do work?
Can you point out anything else that would cause us to accept that premise besides
your blind faith in evolutionary biology? You are the only one wasting time here;
you bring nothing to the discussion to make your point outside of saying how
evolution does it all without justification.

@kellyjay said
You said nature did the coding, didn't you? Right after, I talked about how coding
required a mind for the functionally complex work done in life through instructional
information. Well, maybe I'm wrong, you think the instructions found in life that
direct all of the processes can happen without a mind or intellect to do work?
Can you point out anything else that would c ...[text shortened]... he discussion to make your point outside of saying how
evolution does it all without justification.

I'm aware of our discussion, and my 'faith' in evolutionary biology, leaving aside the vast body of evidence in the fossil record, is in part based on our now deep understanding of genetics, which we call science, which as generic contribution to the discussion needs no further 'justification'.

You have still not told us how or why it is that your 'mind' controlling genetic inheritance makes so many mistakes. You want to try that one?

Nowadays our understanding of natures' processes allows us to genetically modify living things as we see fit; we genetically modify plants and animals at will, the only thing stopping us from taking this process to the extreme is ethics, so how does that fit with your intelligent mind doing all the 'work' ? Are we more powerful than your god these days?

And what, pray, do you bring to the discussion other than your inherited and accidental belief in an all - powerful god, because that's what it says in the bible?
How's that for a waste of time?

@indonesia-phil said
I'm aware of our discussion, and my 'faith' in evolutionary biology, leaving aside the vast body of evidence in the fossil record, is in part based on our now deep understanding of genetics, which we call science, which as generic contribution to the discussion needs no further 'justification'.

You have still not told us how or why it is that your 'mind' controllin ...[text shortened]... an all - powerful god, because that's what it says in the bible?
How's that for a waste of time?

Flowers who know they will probably sprout further should get their own house or flowerpot in order first.

@indonesia-phil said
I'm aware of our discussion, and my 'faith' in evolutionary biology, leaving aside the vast body of evidence in the fossil record, is in part based on our now deep understanding of genetics, which we call science, which as generic contribution to the discussion needs no further 'justification'.

You have still not told us how or why it is that your 'mind' controllin ...[text shortened]... an all - powerful god, because that's what it says in the bible?
How's that for a waste of time?

You have got to be kidding; you have enough with the current understanding of
genetics; what is the genetics understanding that points to a mindless cause for
you? You are bragging and trusting in something blindly if you cannot produce
anything that says mindlessness could do this. I'm willing to be wrong; bring up
some science testable, evidence-based science. I believe you will find you have
more blind faith than you think! No further justification is required; it's settled
science for you, so then producing it shouldn't be a problem; you will not because
you cannot. It isn't there, so you were bragging about something that isn't real!

I've also answered your mistakes in the genetic codes too, and you what forgot?
Degrading life has mistakes, codes break down, and things are wearing down;
when everything was created, it was all designed to produce life; now, everything
points to death. Try to remember this for next time!

You have a small view of God and a grand view of man. God created the whole
universe, speaking into existence, holds EVERYTHING together by the power of His
Word sees the beginning from the end since time is meaningless to Him. Time
because it is meaningless to Him, a day is like a thousand years to Him, a single
the moment an eternity, since all time is meaningless to Him, everything, He does with
all things He has an eternity to think about each particle there is in all things at
times. You think man is more powerful; man today cannot even tell what sex he is
by looking in the mirror.

@kellyjay said
You have got to be kidding; you have enough with the current understanding of
genetics; what is the genetics understanding that points to a mindless cause for
you? You are bragging and trusting in something blindly if you cannot produce
anything that says mindlessness could do this. I'm willing to be wrong; bring up
some science testable, evidence-based science. I believ ...[text shortened]... You think man is more powerful; man today cannot even tell what sex he is
by looking in the mirror.

So science isn't 'real' to you then. Well, that about sums it up, thanks for clarifying.

My point about 'mistakes' in copying the genetic code from one generation to the next is that if, as you postulate, your god is doing all the copying with their intelligent mind, in all of their omnipotence and omniscience, why are they making the mistakes? If the code is 'breaking down', and things are 'wearing down' (what does any of that mean, by the way?) why isn't your god fixing it, especially since you think they have an eternity to fix it in? That's the question.

And as for everything pointing to death, what on earth are you on about? Life is profuse and everywhere on earth where life can exist; everything dies, but new things live, that's the way it is. We are currently witnessing a mass extinction, because we as a species are causing a mass extinction, but life will go on.

And what's all this looking in the mirror got to do with anything, where are you off to with this one? Is this another one of your 'talking snake' moments? Go look in the mirror; what sex are you? There, that was easy, wasn't it?

And by the way I don't think I'm 'bragging' about anything.

@indonesia-phil said
So science isn't 'real' to you then. Well, that about sums it up, thanks for clarifying.

My point about 'mistakes' in copying the genetic code from one generation to the next is that if, as you postulate, your god is doing all the copying with their intelligent mind, in all of their omnipotence and omniscience, why are they making the mistakes? If the code is 'break ...[text shortened]... u? There, that was easy, wasn't it?

And by the way I don't think I'm 'bragging' about anything.

Science is very real to me; you telling me what is what, not so much. I'm saying that
God set up the universe to run, we broke it once we were in charge of it, and it has
been degrading ever since.

Now you don't have a narrative about how it started; you are utterly clueless about
why it is all here, and you seem to be okay with that. Nonetheless, you are
promoting a bottom-up scenario without knowing why; there is no cause for it; it
only gets rid of the top-down one without giving a cause or reason, so if it isn't
discussed, it can be ignored.

I'm saying it only makes sense with a top-down narrative where God started it,
programmed life, set up the constants of the universe, so it runs, God programmed
life, so all the functions happen. While the bottom-up has no explanation for why
it all started, how it all started, and the more we know about the complexity of life
and everything else, the less likely a mindless solution is adequate.

The beginning of this place and how it runs is the question; you can talk about
snakes talking if you like, but if there are spiritual forces in this universe, that would
explain a talking snake; without a spiritual force in the universe, you don't have
any idea on why what is here is here. Not much different than truth, we cannot
deny truth is real because if we do, we are declaring a truth, so our declaration is
immediately in conflict with that, we can say there is no truth, but it only proves
itself even in its denial.

I was hoping you could give me a scientific explanation for all that is, which is
by far a much larger incredible miracle than any talking snake could be. How did all
of the informational instructions directing all life write themselves without a mind
doing it since there are no examples of that ever occurring unless you make the
circular statement life does it? Life is one of the things under discussion, and the
information in it saying is because it is is not an explanation its a statement of
BLIND FAITH.

@kellyjay said
Science is very real to me; you telling me what is what, not so much. I'm saying that
God set up the universe to run, we broke it once we were in charge of it, and it has
been degrading ever since.

Now you don't have a narrative about how it started; you are utterly clueless about
why it is all here, and you seem to be okay with that. Nonetheless, you are
promoting a ...[text shortened]... he
information in it saying is because it is is not an explanation its a statement of
BLIND FAITH.

How do you think we (I assume you mean our species) are 'in charge' of the universe? A couple of posts back you were saying that your god does all of the cellular stuff, all of the time, for eternity, so are you now saying that we are in charge of that as well, and If not then you have still not explained all of the mistakes. You can't have it both ways. And how is the universe degrading?

As to 'why it is all here', why does there have to be a 'why', or a reason?

You believe in your god, I would not presume to tell you that you shouldn't do that, it's in the recent traditions of your culture. Had you been born an ancient Egyptian you would have believed that Ra created the heavens and the earth; different time, different god, but it's essentially the same thing. That's enough for you and that's fine, but it's not enough for me, and that I think is the difference between us.
One persons' truth is another persons' nonsense, and we aren't going to resolve that one.

@indonesia-phil said
How do you think we (I assume you mean our species) are 'in charge' of the universe? A couple of posts back you were saying that your god does all of the cellular stuff, all of the time, for eternity, so are you now saying that we are in charge of that as well, and If not then you have still not explained all of the mistakes. You can't have it both ways. And how is the ...[text shortened]... ween us.
One persons' truth is another persons' nonsense, and we aren't going to resolve that one.

I believe God created the universe; He is not a product of it like all other gods who
had fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters. So there is no comparison between God
and the gods, none whatsoever.

The creation story was what I was referring to in Genesis, where life was not only
something God made, but He also gave all of the living creatures the ability to
populate after their kinds, so life was all pointing towards a new life.

The fact we can all believe in different things doesn't disprove any of the beliefs,
they will rise or fall based on do they fit in reality as it is or not?

@kellyjay said
Life is one of the things under discussion, and the
information in it saying is because it is is not an explanation its a statement of
BLIND FAITH.

I am curious about your use of the term "blind faith".

You seem to mean this: you have faith in X which is [in your imagination] bad news for the likes of me and Indonesia Phil, literally bad news: damnation, torture, infinity etc.

But your faith in X is so strong that it necessitates the two of us to have faith in you being wrong about X.

And our faith that X is not credible is blind because our reasons for not subscribing to belief X do not meet with your satisfaction... making us "blind".

Is that right?

@fmf said
I am curious about your use of the term "blind faith".

You seem to mean this: you have faith in X which is [in your imagination] bad news for the likes of me and Indonesia Phil, literally bad news: damnation, torture, infinity etc.

But your faith in X is so strong that it necessitates the two of us to have faith in you being wrong about X.

And our faith that X is not c ...[text shortened]... subscribing to belief X do not meet with your satisfaction... making us "blind".

Is that right?

There are zero people I want to see go to hell. And you bring that up far more than
I do; no matter what I'm talking about at the time you can bring up hell as if that
voids or diminishes whatever point I'm making about something else.

Blind faith is something that is believed in without a cause or reason. It is a term
that gets thrown around concerning God, but actually, the more we know the
more, the shoe is on the other foot for those that believe a mindless cause started
and directed through time life, not to mention when we can see the constants in the
universe how it behaves like clockwork; many things about that do not just
call out for a mindless process starting and directing it all. Yet that is what many
believe they reject God and submit to the notion a mindless process could build
and improve life over time. Along with everything else in the material and immaterial world.

What about life speaks mindless to you? Even if you accept evolution, that makes
the whole thing is even harder considering all of the changes over time without
destroying life would have had to occur.

@kellyjay said
There are zero people I want to see go to hell.

I didn't say you did. Don't be so disingenuous.