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Originally posted by FMFFrom what I hear, jaywill has spent many a cold winter hour building a life-size diorama that takes up the entirety of his basement of just that. Now if only he can figure out how to get it out of there...
Where can non-believers see for themselves this "spectacle" of people hung out in chains in "everlasting punishment"?
Originally posted by sonshipI can hardly imagine that you could have pick a more boring speaker.
David Bentley Hart critiques pop books by New Atheists - Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Dennett
[b] David Bentley Hart - "Christianity and Its Fashionable Enemies "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYWEYuhiWzE[/b]
Originally posted by sonshipBUMP for sonship.
Now the question is - Is everlasting punishment in any way a spectacle or warning to the saved in the new heaven and new earth ?
Where can non-believers see for themselves this "spectacle" of people hung out in chains in "everlasting punishment"?
Originally posted by sonhouseThe amount of suffering I'd say does mean something, but more times than not we are
So the amount of suffering to get to those deaths means nothing to your alleged deity. Nice to know that about your so-called gracious lord.
the ones adding to that suffering when we can be taking it away, we add to it by our
disregard for others and ourselves.
My point to you is that saying that people die due to X or Y is meaningless because we
are all going to die no matter what, even if it is due to old age in our sleep it is still going
to happen no matter.
Originally posted by KellyJayLike I said, your god cares nothing about suffering or it would have done something about it. Not a word, not a billboard or ad in a paper, nope, nothing.
The amount of suffering I'd say does mean something, but more times than not we are
the ones adding to that suffering when we can be taking it away, we add to it by our
disregard for others and ourselves.
My point to you is that saying that people die due to X or Y is meaningless because we
are all going to die no matter what, even if it is due to old age in our sleep it is still going
to happen no matter.
That tells me quite clearly the whole god thing is just another story made up by men, especially with the aim of controlling the population, which it has quite well.
A real deity would never have created a situation where religions are at each other's throats either. That I firmly believe and nothing anyone can say or foist off bible verse can do to change that.
Religion is the biggest scam of all time. But it worked extraordinarily well, have to give them that.
So for the past three thousand years it has been nothing but one religious war after another.
I don't see a real deity allowing that.
Of course some of you will just say, that is the devil at work. I say Bullshyte, it is men making excuses as to why they should kill.
Originally posted by sonhouseYou don't have clue about what God cares for and doesn't! I've seen more posts from you
Like I said, your god cares nothing about suffering or it would have done something about it. Not a word, not a billboard or ad in a paper, nope, nothing.
That tells me quite clearly the whole god thing is just another story made up by men, especially with the aim of controlling the population, which it has quite well.
A real deity would never have c ...[text shortened]... that is the devil at work. I say Bullshyte, it is men making excuses as to why they should kill.
on what God should and shouldn't do more than many Christians here, and the only thing
that you are basing all of your views on is on how you'd do things. Then you run down the
notion of God by doing the very thing you claim believers are doing, bad mouthing God by
the thoughts you have made up about God.
"A real deity would never..." as if you have a stinking clue what a real deity would or would
not do, the one you make up in your mind you can speak for, but the real One you have
no idea.
With respect to how people behave, we do murder and war with one another because we
are a broken race that is our fallen nature. You have gone on and on about why didn't God
stop world wars, why did we start them? Would all of those people that died during those
wars still be alive or would they be dying off for other reasons even now no matter what?
You should look at God as is, not as you make Him up.
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Originally posted by FMFIf you can explain to me why your question deserves serious reply, maybe I'll think of a reply.
BUMP for sonship.
Where can non-believers see for themselves this "spectacle" of people hung out in chains in "everlasting punishment"?
Why do you think this is an interesting question that deserve my serious reply? It is even framed as if you did not bother to read what I wrote above - that "chains" or bonds I only see used in referenced to angels, and even that to certain of them among the whole realm of bad angels.
Go back and read my submission again carefully. And don't ask a kind of "business as usual" frivolous question just to get me talking.
FMF, you think perhaps you're being clever. But your question is kind of stupid.
Where can non-believers see for themselves this "spectacle" of people hung out in chains in "everlasting punishment"?
Its not a clever question FMF. It is a stupid one. And now you will likely labor to explain why it is not a stupid question. Sometimes I do get in the mood to humor some cleverly arranged thoughts followed by a question mark. But when one's quota of such devices gets too high, I lose interest even in that.
Where can non-believers see for themselves this "spectacle" of people hung out in chains in "everlasting punishment"?
Check google under "Can God make a rock too heavy for Him to lift ?" Maybe your answer is along side of that. .
Divegeester, Can you reply with either a Yes or a No ?
Paul asks the question in Romans - Is God unrighteous to inflict wrath ?
" Is the God who inflicts wrath unrighteous ? (See Rom. 3:5b)
Would you reply to the Apostle Paul "Yes" or "No" ?
The whole verse ?
"But if our unrighteousness commends the righteousness of God, what shall we say?
Is the God who inflicts wrath unrighteous ?
I speak according to man." (Rom. 3:5)
Is God unrighteous who inflicts wrath in judgment divegeester ?
Originally posted by KellyJayI don't have to look at him as I make him up, since it was already made up by men thousands of years ago.
You don't have clue about what God cares for and doesn't! I've seen more posts from you
on what God should and shouldn't do more than many Christians here, and the only thing
that you are basing all of your views on is on how you'd do things. Then you run down the
notion of God by doing the very thing you claim believers are doing, bad mouthing God by
t ...[text shortened]... other reasons even now no matter what?
You should look at God as is, not as you make Him up.
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Originally posted by FMFI am pretty clear what a spectacle is.
A "spectacle" is something one can see. Where can non-believers see the "spectacle" that you described?
Eternal damnation is not remedial. It is punishment. It is retribution.
Before this last and final drastic judgment, God does a lot to correct, to rescue, to educate for the benefit of the straying one. God does a lot before the ultimate perdition of those who refuse His correction.
At this final stage, the lost one's benefit as to, let us say, benefiting and being reformed by observing himself, is OVER. Its seems to be all over. Correction, education, refining, is through. There is just eternal punishment.
God lets the lost one know just how He thinks about the continuous frozen state of his unrepentant revolt against God. I don't see the final eternal perdition as designed to be observed by the damned for their edification. It is not for their edification. It is for their endless punishment.
So we need to look to Calvary, and worship God in Christ who went to such an extent that we would be redeemed and made one with God.
There is a FINAL, and a LAST step of God dealing with the sinners.
Now I'll be away from the board for a week.
Originally posted by sonshipYou described it as "a spectacle or warning to the saved in the new heaven and new earth". But now you seem to be backing away from the word "spectacle" because, of course, no one can see it. How is it a deterrent or "warning" if it cannot be seen or witnessed?
I am pretty clear what a spectacle is.
So I'll humor you a bit. I know that these are difficult matters which sometimes take a long time, maybe a lifetime.
I am going to be away from the board for a week.
Eternal damnation is not remedial. It is punishment. It is retribution.
[i[ Before [/i] this last and final drastic judgment, God does a lot ...[text shortened]... orship God in Christ who went to such an extent that we would be redeemed and made one with God.