25 Sep 09
Originally posted by WulebgrThis sounds more like a slam on western thinking than anything that
Jesus lived in a world that did not contain the sort of atomism that is at the heart of western individualistic thinking, so he did not need to address it directly. Many years of study have brought me to this conclusion, not a few verses that we can hop through.
In order to gain some understanding of the Bible, you might start with something written by P ...[text shortened]... nse only within a covenanted community with a common life.
http://www.forministry.com/
directly has to do with scripture and Jesus' teachings, please get to
the point. So I now know what Pastor William O'Brien's thoughts are
show me in scripture what Jesus' where on the matter, otherwise I
think you have nothing on the subject outside of your opinion.
Kelly
25 Sep 09
Originally posted by KellyJayI never have anything except my opinion, which developed from a lifetime of study, mostly of history. I'm certain you have something more than your opinion, though. Sorry for my inadequacy.
This sounds more like a slam on western thinking than anything that
directly has to do with scripture and Jesus' teachings, please get to
the point. So I now know what Pastor William O'Brien's thoughts are
show me in scripture what Jesus' where on the matter, otherwise I
think you have nothing on the subject outside of your opinion.
Kelly
I see no slam on western thinking here. I do see recognition that Jesus was not a western European, and that his teaching must be understood in light of the world in which he lived.
I think you've hit on the key problem. In American society today, the Right chants "anti-Western, anti-American, anti-Western, woe to the evil White Man" every time they are faced with a little bit of accurate history.
Here's the Bible passage I use to access the teachings of Jesus: Matt 1:1-John 21:25. Having spent more than forty years reading, reflecting, studying this passage, I find notions of community to be at the heart of everything there. My passion for social justice comes from this foundation.
Ideas that laws should support the individual over and against the community is repugnant to everything I have seen in the gospels.
25 Sep 09
Originally posted by WulebgrWhat, where did this evil White man come from?
I never have anything except my opinion, which developed from a lifetime of study, mostly of history. I'm certain you have something more than your opinion, though. Sorry for my inadequacy.
I see no slam on western thinking here. I do see recognition that Jesus was not a western European, and that his teaching must be understood in light of the world in w ...[text shortened]... idual over and against the community is repugnant to everything I have seen in the gospels.
I just wanted you to stick to the point of why Jesus would feel that
individualism was evil? What accurate history are you talking about?
Come on Wuebgr, your all over the place here!
I agree Jesus was not a western European, neither am I so big deal?
Are you really stuck on this anti-western thing and evil white people?
Mathew 1:1
1 This is a record of the ancestors of Jesus the Messiah, a descendant of David and of Abraham:
John 21:25
25 Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.
Maybe you could get specific?
Kelly
25 Sep 09
Originally posted by KellyJayI said nothing anti-western, but you claimed that I did. That communication gap is the source of much trouble, and is familiar. You pretend political neutrality, but quickly fall into the talking points of the Right when someone criticizes some cherished assumption.
Are you really stuck on this anti-western thing and evil white people?
Look around. Open your eyes to the world. Read the New Testament and tell me that Jesus supports the individualism touted by the Right in the United States. I think he didn't, but don't have the time to write a dissertation on the topic.
25 Sep 09
Originally posted by KellyJayYou brought it up.
What, where did this evil White man come from?
"This sounds more like a slam on western thinking"
It's all part of the same mantra. Someone says that American society has become excessively individualistic, or that a particular party wants it more so and opposes as socialistic every program designed to mitigate this perverse ideal, and one or more elements of this mantra come out.
25 Sep 09
Originally posted by WulebgrSomeone says that American society has become excessively individualistic, or that a particular party wants it more so and opposes as socialistic every program designed to mitigate this perverse ideal, and one or more elements of this mantra come out.
You brought it up.
"This sounds more like a slam on western thinking"
It's all part of the same mantra. Someone says that American society has become excessively individualistic, or that a particular party wants it more so and opposes as socialistic every program designed to mitigate this perverse ideal, and one or more elements of this mantra come out.
What do you think of the idea of society not being individualistic at all? Do you believe Jesus would be for or against such an idea?
25 Sep 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI don't presume to know what Jesus would be for or against.
What do you think of the idea of society not being individualistic at all? Do you believe Jesus would be for or against such an idea?
However, in his teaching there is some emphasis upon individual responsibility, and there are stories about particular individuals, and there are struggles on behalf of a solitary prostitute. We can conclude that a political party or society that sought to erase all individual distinctions would be repugnant to the teachings of Jesus.
I have observed that healthy individual identity across all cultures generally seems to be expressed in terms of communities--family, tribe, nation. The nuclear family, however, seems a product of post-WWII Western societies (maybe that's why they use the term nuclear). Such historical aberrations are a poor groundwork for developing social policy, Christian or not.
Much of American conservatism in the past few decades has favored atomistic individualism and the nuclear family. It is hard to imagine either of these as conforming to any biblical ideals, not only because they are so alien to the world of Jesus and the disciples, but because so much of the bible's teachings, and especially that of Jesus, relies upon assumptions of mutual interdependence and responsibility for one another.
25 Sep 09
Originally posted by WulebgrWhere did "a political party or society that sought to erase all individual distinctions" come from? Or for that matter, "...erase all individual distinctions..".
I don't presume to know what Jesus would be for or against.
However, in his teaching there is some emphasis upon individual responsibility, and there are stories about particular individuals, and there are struggles on behalf of a solitary prostitute. We can conclude that a political party or society that sought to erase all individual distinctions would ...[text shortened]... Jesus, relies upon assumptions of mutual interdependence and responsibility for one another.
I was approaching this from the point of view that "American society has become excessively individualistic."
It lead me to wonder if there is any value in individualism.
What do you make of the following passage?
Matthew 16
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it."
26 Sep 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIt seems that I misread the implications of you question. I took your "not being individualistic at all" as postulating an excess of communalism, as an inquiry about the possibilities of looking at the biblical problems with an excess of individualism by examining whether Jesus might have advocated the opposite.
Where did "a political party or society that sought to erase all individual distinctions" come from? Or for that matter, "...erase all individual distinctions..".
The verse in question certainly suggests subsuming individual will. But, it does not address the self that developed in late twentieth century America, unless Jesus--knowing all that ever will be--meant to say something incomprehensible to his disciples so it could be used to rebuke a people who have become significant mostly for their capacity and evident will to destroy the planet itself.
26 Sep 09
Originally posted by WulebgrI'm not sure what you mean by "the self that developed in late twentieth century America." Can you clarify?
It seems that I misread the implications of you question. I took your "not being individualistic at all" as postulating an excess of communalism, as an inquiry about the possibilities of looking at the biblical problems with an excess of individualism by examining whether Jesus might have advocated the opposite.
The verse in question certainly suggests su ...[text shortened]... ve become significant mostly for their capacity and evident will to destroy the planet itself.
27 Sep 09
2 edits
Originally posted by WulebgrIf I understood this point, I't try to address it. Since I have vandalized nothing, I don't know how to begin to respond to this.....sentence???🙄
When someone misrepresents what you have said, you ask them to "explain their meaning"? That's noble of you.
I don't.
That makes you a cretin.
Perhaps "You need a reading lesson" was harsh.
No sh$t. Sherlock.
It's funny that you think the effort to be polite is so compelling that one can create a thread and then sh (yadayadayada)
30 Sep 09
Originally posted by Wulebgr"Individualism is perhaps the most pervasive and powerful force in Western culture, especially in the United States."
I said nothing anti-western, but you claimed that I did. That communication gap is the source of much trouble, and is familiar. You pretend political neutrality, but quickly fall into the talking points of the Right when someone criticizes some cherished assumption.
Look around. Open your eyes to the world. Read the New Testament and tell me that Jesus ...[text shortened]... nited States. I think he didn't, but don't have the time to write a dissertation on the topic.
I don't think you can honestly say you said nothing that was
anti-western, you may not have used the word "anti-western" but
you did bad mouth it. You have something to say about the
"white people" comment?
Kelly
30 Sep 09
Originally posted by KellyJayCritique of Western individualism is not hostility or "anti-Western" any more than criticism of Congress is anti-American. You are revealing your bias here, and to be frank, it makes reasonable conversation next to impossible.
"Individualism is perhaps the most pervasive and powerful force in Western culture, especially in the United States."
I don't think you can honestly say you said nothing that was
anti-western, you may not have used the word "anti-western" but
you did bad mouth it. You have something to say about the
"white people" comment?
Kelly
I am a Western American White Man. I live in the world of books written in English. I cherish scholarship, fly fishing, individual privacy, and other elements of Western culture.
I also value insights and critique of the excesses of my culture from other points of view, including non-Western cultures (such as the near Eastern texts called the Bible).
Western European notions of the Self that are pervasive in our society, and have been elevated almost as sacrosanct in our lifetime, differ substantially from the world of Jesus. When people fail to recognize the existence of this cultural gulf, it distorts their reading of sacred texts. I think much of conservative Republican philosophy as articulated by self-professed Christians is grounded in these misreadings.
None of this necessarily rejects individualism, American Christianity, Western traditions, or even Republicanism. It may do so. It may not. However, it does assert that much of what is commonly attributed to the guidance of the Holy Spirit is more likely cultural blindness--a failure to perceive how the cultural preconceptions of the Bible are alien to modern Western culture. Moreover, much of the world's evil in recent years--torture, global ecological destruction, etc--are perpetrated by people who should not be able to appropriate the name Christian without vocal protest from believers.
I see this protest, but it seems mostly a minor movement within evangelical Christianity.
01 Oct 09
Originally posted by WulebgrI think a little bias revealing is going on from both of us, but I'll say
Critique of Western individualism is not hostility or "anti-Western" any more than criticism of Congress is anti-American. You are revealing your bias here, and to be frank, it makes reasonable conversation next to impossible.
I am a Western American White Man. I live in the world of books written in English. I cherish scholarship, fly fishing, individual ...[text shortened]...
I see this protest, but it seems mostly a minor movement within evangelical Christianity.
that I think your right in some of your points. So why did you interject
the "white man' comment into the discussion, being one does not add
too or take away from that?
Kelly