21 Jul 19
1 edit
@caissad4 saidWell actually he wouldn't go to heaven at all when he would be resurrected. Jesus stated the choosing of who goes to heaven as the faithful 12 apostles were the first of the 144,000.
It is interesting to note that if Hitler had "come to the Lord" in his last few moments of life he would be in Heaven with Jesus guy while all the Jews he murdered would be burning in Hell for eternity.
Christian justice is rather warped.
But knowing that the bible says that all of ones sins are wiped clean at ones death then that would apply to all who have died. Even as wicked as Hitler was he will no doubt be resurrected in the future by Jehovah and his son. Their could be some type of restrictions on ones like this but the bible does not say.
21 Jul 19
@proper-knob saidWhat are you asking? I tried to find out.
@KellyJay
How is that an answer to my question?
I realize that it is a JW thing - the 144,000 number, and you are surely welcome to believe whatever you want to believe - but, to me, that boggles the mind.
Some 108 Billion people have been born, and 7.4 Billion are still alive. That leaves a little over 100 Billion people who have been born, and have died. These are just guesstimates. And yet, according to JWs, the number of people saved is 144,000?
I humbly submit that is not rational in any sensible way, and should not be used as a talking point!
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21 Jul 19
1 edit
@johnsim03 saidI'm not a JW, but think you have simply misunderstood the whole 144,000 thing.
I realize that it is a JW thing - the 144,000 number, and you are surely welcome to believe whatever you want to believe - but, to me, that boggles the mind.
Some 108 Billion people have been born, and 7.4 Billion are still alive. That leaves a little over 100 Billion people who have been born, and have died. These are just guesstimates. And yet, according to JWs, the nu ...[text shortened]... I humbly submit that is not rational in any sensible way, and should not be used as a talking point!
Most of the saved will live in a restored paradise here on Earth. (So they believe).
21 Jul 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThanks for that - yes, clearly a misunderstanding on my part.
I'm not a JW, but think you have simply misunderstood the whole 144,000 thing.
Most of the saved will live in a restored paradise here on Earth. (So they believe).
The 144,000 are the "king-priests" for 1000 years; the others accepted by God are the "great crowd" who return to the restored paradise on earth...
Gee, wiz - that restored paradise could be a crowded place...
21 Jul 19
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe "144,000" thing is used in part to create hierarchical mystique with regard to functionaries and "elders" within the U.S.based non-stock non-profit corporation. There's a bit of a 'the pigs have moved into the farmhouse' thing about it, I think. The "144,400" thing has nothing to do with 7 or so billion people in earth; JWs tell themselves that only the 8 or so million people who are members of the JW organization can be "saved".
I'm not a JW, but think you have simply misunderstood the whole 144,000 thing.
Most of the saved will live in a restored paradise here on Earth.
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21 Jul 19
2 edits
By "unrighteousness" you mean lack of belief, right? You believe that NOT having the same beliefs as you is "unrighteousness" and deserves the "hatred" of the God figure you believe in, yes?
I think that there is no hope, no ground for confidence, for someone to calculate that God is incompetent to not be able to judge with absolute perfect fairness.
The questions you manufacture all have a hope, that humans can locate flaw of reasoning in God's revelation. The rebel hopes to exposed a programming bug, so that the entire matter of God being the final Savior, Judge, Lord, and King are rendered unworthy to be believed.
Though I may not be able to answer every question so derived by the skeptical mind, I think hoping in the "incompetent God" who is not even as smart as you and I, is a vain hope.
Take your clue from the universe. There is no end in sight to its expanse.
To His love to save and His willingness to let you go your own way if you really don't want saving, is too great. Seeking out the limits so as to convince yourself that maybe the Almighty hasn't thought things through quite enough, like, ie. YOU have, I think won't correct God.
I may not have been told everything that can be told. But I have been told enough. And I have been shown Someone who is believable in what He came to reveal about God - the Son, Christ.
21 Jul 19
@sonship saidThis stuff you have typed does not address the questions of mine you've quoted and that you are pretending to answer.
@FMF
By "unrighteousness" you mean lack of belief, right? You believe that NOT having the same beliefs as you is "unrighteousness" and deserves the "hatred" of the God figure you believe in, yes?
I think that there is no hope, no ground for confidence, for someone to calculate that God is incompetent to not be able to judge with absolute perfect fairnes ...[text shortened]... d I have been shown Someone who is believable in what He came to reveal about God - the Son, Christ.
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21 Jul 19
I really don't think anyone could imagine your god as Barney the Dinosaur.
Yet you seem to want to try that that is the way He should be.
Barney never said "Love me or I will torture you forever".
Quote the Bible where it was said in any of the places in the 66 books of my Bible.
You see. You don't read it. So you imagine what you wish to be there and speak with great confidence that it IS there.
Your next post will have a "proof text" that God said it is "love me or torture".
Back it up big mouth.
But I will check.
Barney is a very nice imaginary character while your god is an evil imaginary character.
You have a vested interest that your sins are never judged. So it seems evil to you that you are warned that God's record of your life is infallible with no mistakes and no omissions.
In lieu of this He has a plan of salvation which you dedicate much time here to show is imaginary.
I don't think human beings WOULD imagine a Person like Jesus Christ even if they had the ability to do so.
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21 Jul 19
This stuff you have typed does not address the questions of mine you've quoted and that you are pretending to answer.
The things I write often go to the underlying issue.
Anyone can come up with one more question and another and another.
We may not have been told everything.
What we have been told is adequate to give us the incentive to turn to God and be saved.
Whatever Hitler's situation is, that is not your situation.
The complexity of Adolf Hitler's situation before God will be his situation before God. And your situation will be your's.
Put no confidence in judging being over God's head so that He'll be stumped and have to change His way, His character.
Paul authored some 13 of the New Testament's 27 books. To me, even Paul wrote some things with an indication that he did not know everything that could be known.
You are confident in this " Let me show you what you don't know and cannot answer with 100% certainty. Why your brothers don't even all agree."
There are things about your own being you don't completely know.
But you know that you live, you are here.
I propose that we know Christ came and Christ spoke for us to hear. And Christ lived such as no one ever lived to show HE Himself took His own words utterly seriously.
You know what He said. And you know what He did about what He said for your benefit.
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21 Jul 19
2 edits
Questions on whether Adolf Hitler can be saved on his death bed are tough. However, the assumption of such questions is only an assumption which may not turn out to be true.
That assumption is that a person's eternal fate cannot be determined if they are still alive and able to repent.
I think that as I examine the Bible closely, the assumption is less then one hundred percent sure. Some people seemed to have sealed their eternal destiny even before that final breath.
While I would encourage last minute repentance, I would not have the confidence to insist that some have not decided their eternal destiny even years before they take their last breath.
Like who? Well for instance, Jesus said the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age nor in the age to come.
This doesn't mean I am exactly sure what that sin is. But whatever Jesus meant, it seems to be a decidedly self condemning offense that doesn't need to wait for the last moment of life for the offender.
Do not press me to explain what it is. I am not certain. But during His earthly ministry SOME had apparently done it when they accused that Christ whom they witnesses as having an unclean spirit - a demon.
Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, any sin and blasphemy can be forgiven. ... And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
Better not to play with fire.
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21 Jul 19
2 edits
Caissadr,
How is it going locating that passage -
"Love me or I will torture you forever".
Or its equivalent ? I could help you. But why should I help you on your argument with some prospective candidate verses?
John's Gospel is a major one on the requirements of eternal life. It stresses there again and again - believing in Christ, not loving God.
Many of us who got save didn't love God very much at all. Love grew. But love was not the requirement placed upon us.
We BELIEVED in the truth of Jesus being Who He says He is.
21 Jul 19
@sonship saidThe underlying issue I am raising with you is encapsulated by this brace of connected questions:
The things I write often go to the underlying issue.
By "unrighteousness" you mean lack of belief, right?
You believe that not having the same beliefs as you is "unrighteousness" and deserves the "hatred" of the God figure you believe in, yes?
Yes or no for each would suffice. You can just decline to answer rather than pretend you are.
21 Jul 19
@sonship saidI am asking you whether, by "unrighteousness", you mean lack of belief? I am not asking you about "Hitler's situation".
Whatever Hitler's situation is, that is not your situation. The complexity of Adolf Hitler's situation before God will be his situation before God. And your situation will be your's.