Spirituality
07 Mar 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterThere is no forgiveness without repentance. Not a "Sunday School" concept of repentance, but true repentance with the standard given by God in the following:
Someone does something to hurt us and we know we should forgive because that’s the best way to get rid of the angst, but how. How is it possible to let the angst go just by saying, or thinking, “I forgive you?”
Thoughts...
Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them.
27But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
The gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry is consistent with this standard of repentance.
With this standard of repentance an individual truly has "a new heart and a new spirit". The former person has died and ceases to exist. Basically the person has been "born again" and is a different person. The new person can and should be viewed as just that - new and different. And "None of the offenses they have committed [should] be remembered against them."
Conceptually this all makes sense, but seems to be lost on the vast majority of Christians. They believe in a different standard of repentance. The believe in a different gospel.
08 Mar 18
Originally posted by @thinkofonethanks.
There is no forgiveness without repentance. Not a "Sunday School" concept of repentance, but true repentance with the standard given by God in the following:
Ezekiel 18
21[b]“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die ...[text shortened]...
Conceptually this all makes sense, but seems to be lost on the vast majority of Christians.
My OP is about forgiving rather than being forgiven though.
08 Mar 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterAs was my response. Although I did spell it out in an edit, since many seem to have trouble connecting the dots. Perhaps you had responded before the edit?
thanks.
My OP is about forgiving rather than being forgiven though.
08 Mar 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @thinkofoneAre you saying that it is only possibly to forgive a person if they repent of whatever harm they have don’t you?
As was my response. Although I did spell it out in an edit, since many seem to have trouble connecting the dots. Perhaps you had responded before the edit?
Originally posted by @divegeesterForgiveness by the wronged party is made difficult if there is no corresponding (and perceived) remorse on the part of the wrongdoer.
Someone does something to hurt us and we know we should forgive because that’s the best way to get rid of the angst, but how. How is it possible to let the angst go just by saying, or thinking, “I forgive you?”
Thoughts...
Forgiveness shouldn't rely on downplaying the wrong that was done. Nor should it rely on forgetting the wrongdoing or searching for a way to justify it or even to endorse it.
For forgiveness to work - by which I mean work for the wronged party - I think it has to be about attaining peace of mind and freeing oneself from feelings of resentment, especially if those feelings are corrosive.
I don't think forgiveness relies on there being positive feelings towards the wrongdoer. And I don't think forgiveness is always necessary.
From the point of view of the wrongdoer, if forgiveness does not lead to change or at least the will to change [by way of remorse and reflection], it's probably morally unhealthy.
Forgiveness received when none was thought necessary can lead to resentment. But it should be possible to forgive the forgiver for their forgiveness.
Originally posted by @divegeesterBeing humble is the greatest way to achieve progress in spirituality.
Someone does something to hurt us and we know we should forgive because that’s the best way to get rid of the angst, but how. How is it possible to let the angst go just by saying, or thinking, “I forgive you?”
Thoughts...
For some people, honestly, that would mean changing the entire tone of posting and interaction on internet forums.
Monks go into isolation from the world so that they can hope to achieve something like this.
It's too difficult to be in a state of always having to forgive others and exposed to cruelties. You literally have to exit the world to improve sometimes.
08 Mar 18
Originally posted by @philokaliaDo you plan to change the tone of your posting and interaction on this internet forum?
For some people, honestly, that would mean changing the entire tone of posting and interaction on internet forums.
Originally posted by @fmfNo, but I am limiting my interactions with some users. And I am trying to be more humble and cooperative.
Do you plan to change the tone of your posting and interaction on this internet forum?
I also think there is a difference between the way that people emphasize things wtih sarcasm and the way that someone is rude in another context.
How about you?
Originally posted by @philokaliaYour "interactions with some users"? Ho hum. You're not offering much about the topic: "How to forgive?" to be getting on with unless you want people to discuss your self-pity/navel-gazing over whether or how to forgive people here.
No, but I am limiting my interactions with some users. And I am trying to be more humble and cooperative.
I also think there is a difference between the way that people emphasize things wtih sarcasm and the way that someone is rude in another context.
How about you?
Originally posted by @philokaliaIf you are suggesting "being humble" is "how to forgive" you should perhaps expand on the notion a bit.
Being humble is the greatest way to achieve progress in spirituality.
Originally posted by @philokaliaYou think there are people here who want or need you to forgive them or who want or need to forgive you for something?
If we can just dismiss others, out of our pride, how can we hope to forgive them?
Originally posted by @philokalia[1] What makes you think there are people here who "have to change" but face a "barrier"? [2] What does your musing about "pride" and "virtue" have to do with "how to forgive" [the thread topic]?
Pride is the greatest barrier to any virtue because it is the belief that one does not really have to change as one is already completely self-sufficient.