1. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Aug '14 06:05
    Is Islam the true and real threat to the rest (Western world) of the world ? Many will say Islam has been hijacked by radicals of that faith but throughout the history of this religion it has been fraught with warfare. The Sunni against the Shia and also any other people who do not capitulate and become Muslim get heads chopped off !! Any religion who wishes to kill and starve women and children no matter what name it goes by is evil

    Manny
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    09 Aug '14 06:24
    Originally posted by menace71
    ... but throughout the history of this religion it has been fraught with warfare.
    I think you will find that in most of that warfare, Christians were the aggressors. Christianity has a history just as bad as Islam, so is it evil?
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Aug '14 06:282 edits
    Originally posted by menace71
    Any religion who wishes to kill and starve women and children no matter what name it goes by is evil

    People do the wishing. So we should hold people responsible for what they wish for and not allow them to hide behind ideologies. If we were to define "evil" as an absence of morality and humanity that results in actions that cause great harm to innocents, then I think anyone who uses religion as a justification for, for example, killing and starving women and children could clearly be described as evil.
  4. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Aug '14 06:561 edit
    Originally posted by menace71
    Many will say Islam has been hijacked by radicals of that faith but throughout the history of this religion it has been fraught with warfare. The Sunni against the Shia and also any other people who do not capitulate and become Muslim get heads chopped off !!
    Some unknown proportion of Muslims believe that unbelievers should have their heads chopped off for being unbelievers. I would venture to say, though, that a far, far larger proportion of Christians believe that unbelievers should be tortured for eternity in burning agony.

    Now I don't have any reason to believe either of these two groups when they claim that God has revealed Himself to them and that their beliefs are "true". However, if I am wrong and God has in fact revealed Himself to, say, those Muslims that chop off unbelievers' heads and they are therefore doing so righteously in accordance with God's will, then that is that. It's Gods will.

    But if I am wrong about that, and God has indeed revealed Himself to the Christians and they are right about billions and billions of unbelievers being tortured for eternity in burning agony for believing something different, then that is that; it's God's will.

    I am not a religionist and I do not subscribe to either group's assertions about what God's will is. menace71, I've read your posts over the years, so I am pretty sure you think the Christians are right and the Muslims are wrong about what God's will is, yes?
  5. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Aug '14 07:04
    Originally posted by FMF
    Some unknown proportion of Muslims believe that unbelievers should have their heads chopped off for being unbelievers. I would venture to say, though, that a far, far larger proportion of Christians believe that unbelievers should be tortured for eternity in burning agony.

    Now I don't have any reason to believe either of these two groups when they claim that ...[text shortened]... sure you think the Christians are right and the Muslims are wrong about what God's will is, yes?
    If any one who calls themselves Christians (or any label or religion ) and then starves women and children then they are evil period !! plain and simple

    It was not an statement that any one religion is right or an argument saying Christians are better than or more righteous than Muslims.....However a group or sect that does this no matter the badge they claim is evil

    Manny
  6. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Aug '14 07:13
    Originally posted by menace71
    If any one who calls themselves Christians (or any label or religion ) and then starves women and children then they are evil period !! plain and simple
    This just the same as what I said. So we agree then.
  7. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Aug '14 07:19
    Originally posted by menace71
    It was not an statement that any one religion is right or an argument saying Christians are better than or more righteous than Muslims.....However a group or sect that does this no matter the badge they claim is evil
    Well, "no matter the badge they claim", if some religionists believe that it is right or just for billions and billions of unbelievers/dissenters to be tortured for eternity in burning agony for believing something different from them, then we can call this an "evil" notion "plain and simple" too, right? We agree on this also?
  8. Standard membermenace71
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    09 Aug '14 07:52
    Originally posted by FMF
    Well, "no matter the badge they claim", if some religionists believe that it is right or just for billions and billions of unbelievers/dissenters to be tortured for eternity in burning agony for believing something different from them, then we can call this an "evil" notion "plain and simple" too, right? We agree on this also?
    Not as agreed on that ......On the surface I would say sure I agree but I trust in the righteousness of a sovereign God and His Judgement that being said I've always struggled with the concept of Hell or eternal judgement and why would a just God put people in a place like that ? Honestly I could spout off all of the Sunday school answers but I've just kinda put that subject down and I leave it in God's hands. BTW Muslims also believe non-believers go to suffer in hell if people do not believe. I notice you want to make this into an argument about Christianity being wrong or evil. Well anyway I'd be lying if I did not say I have not struggled with certain aspects of things ......like why a garden and a tree and Hell ? I actually want to believe in the idea of annihilation but I'm not sure the bible teaches this.

    Manny
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    09 Aug '14 08:02
    Originally posted by menace71
    However a group or sect that does this no matter the badge they claim is evil
    But is anyone else using the same badge, also evil? There are people claiming the badge 'Christian' who have starved women and children. Are all those using the badge 'Christian' evil? Is Christianity evil?

    Your OP states that the religion itself becomes evil, not the people using the badge of the religion.
  10. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Aug '14 08:08
    Originally posted by menace71
    I notice you want to make this into an argument about Christianity being wrong or evil.
    No I am not. I am agreeing with you in saying that, regardless of what relgion's "badge" one uses to justify evil, it remains evil. I thought that was what you meant by your OP.
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    09 Aug '14 09:27
    Once one accepts that much evil has been done over the centuries in the name of religion, then it is clear that historical evil-doing is not an indicator of the rightness or wrongness of a particular religion. Similarly the good done in the name of religion, how religions have benefited mankind unilaterally should not be taken and an indicator of rightness or wrongness.

    Let's consider today. I look at Christianity today and I see generally in the western world at least, a broken shell, a dead corporate construct full of hypocrisy, cults, manipulation and greed. I look at Islam and I see religion that is living and growing and spreading. These two ancient tribes (if you like) are at very different stages of their evolution.

    Today Christianity repels me and Islam scares me. That is my truthful position. Because Islam is alive and vibrant and growing it has real power. I have been to Saudi Arabia where it preaches "true Islam": it is illegal for women to work, to drive, to go out alone. It is illegal to have a beer but not to smoke. There are public beheadings in certain places on Fridays.

    Both "religions" are horrible today - for different reasons. But I know which one concerns me the most.
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    09 Aug '14 09:36
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Once one accepts that much evil has been done over the centuries in the name of religion, then it is clear that historical evil-doing is not an indicator of the rightness or wrongness of a particular religion.
    Although I agree with the conclusion, it doesn't follow from what you have stated here.
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    09 Aug '14 09:38
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Although I agree with the conclusion, it doesn't follow from what you have stated here.
    Please explain.
  14. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Aug '14 11:49
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I have been to Saudi Arabia where it preaches "true Islam": it is illegal for women to work, to drive, to go out alone. It is illegal to have a beer but not to smoke. There are public beheadings in certain places on Fridays.
    But isn't this just a description of Saudi Arabia with its dictatorship ruling 28 million people? How do you explain the fact that the vast majority of Muslims, remember there are 2,080,000,000 of them ~ including those in countries where Muslims hold the reins of political power ~ do not live in circumstances like those in Saudi Arabia and do not seek to?
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Aug '14 11:55
    Originally posted by divegeester
    [In Saudi Arabia] it is illegal for women to work, to drive, to go out alone. It is illegal to have a beer but not to smoke. There are public beheadings in certain places on Fridays.
    How does women not being allowed to work in Saudi Arabia "scare" you exactly?

    And, to tie this into the OP, do you think things like "It [being] illegal to have a beer but not to smoke" in Saudi Arabia is in any way "the true and real threat to the Western world"? If not, what exactly is? Do you have better illustrations of that perceived threat?
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