Jehovah's Witness a Masonic Offshoot ?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The issue is not about me, its about what the Bible says about taking fellow christians to court and how this disqualifies Witness Lee. How you could have failed to understand this I cannot say but I guess logic never really was your forte.

Personally i don't believe most things you say and this latest tirade has simply confirmed my previous con ...[text shortened]... e anything to say about the issue at hand then try to focus on it, who knows, you may do better?

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'm doing fine, thank you.

Stop your desperate bluster and answer the question.

How can you possibly call out sonship while you yourself [b]refuse to follow Christ's commandment to show love for your Christian brothers. In fact, you go so far as to deny they are Christian, and therefore you're under no obligation to show them love. Becaus ...[text shortened]... ed treatment of his Christian brothers. Your "call-out" is hypocritical, in the extreme.[/b]

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I am sorry but I cannot take you seriously. You are asking me to answer a loaded question. Its so transparent and contrived as to be of the level of rank beginner. If you have anything to say on the actual issue at hand let it be heard otherwise why dont you try free bird seed, or ACME rocket boots.

Originally posted by RJHinds
She's just trolling. Act Christian and forgive her.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Fine I can wait till you get back, either way, you will need to confront the issue. I am not gloating jaywill I think you are a sincere person and have entrusted your spirituality to someone that is not qualified to be an Elder according to the principles laid out in scripture. He stands disqualified by his action. This is a purely reasoned stance ...[text shortened]... ng. If you don't believe me in that regard then there is nothing more I can do to convince you.

Please read all of First Corinthians 6:1-6 -

Does anyone of you who has a case against another dare to be judged before the unrighteous and not before the saints ? (v.1)

I say this to your shame. So there is no one wise among you, who will be able to discern between his brothers? (v.5)

But brother goes to court with brother, and this before unbelievers." (.v6)

The following exchange occurred on June 29, 1948, as part of a question and answer session in a training conducted by Watchman Nee at Kuling Mountain:

Sister Wang Shu-ging: If some schools insist on cutting the girls’ hair, what should we do? Can we sue the school?

Watchman Nee: The Bible does not permit believers to sue anyone (cf. 1 Cor. 6:1-2). If others sue us, we can respond to the suit, but we cannot initiate a lawsuit. When problems arise between believers and unbelievers, the unbelievers can be the plaintiff. Believers can defend themselves, but that is all they can do. A believer cannot turn around and file a suit. It is all right for Christians to be defendants, but never plaintiffs. This applies to a Christian’s personal affairs. As citizens of a state, however, we have the right to enjoy the freedom guaranteed by the constitution. Christians can enjoy the same freedom as others. If a school forces girls to cut their hair, the parents can sue the school, and we can help the parents in their fight against the schools. It is the freedom of individual citizens to keep their hair. There is no law that says that a person cannot be a citizen of the Republic of China if he or she keeps long hair. A school principal cannot say that a girl can no longer be a student if she has long hair. This is a matter of personal liberty. If someone asks me to intervene in this matter, I will. Nevertheless, we have to be proper in our attitude. We may invite those for a meal, go to the court together, and then drive them home afterward. In such matters we should be free from personal feelings. We are here to fight for the truth only. If the post office writes a letter saying that they will not deliver Bibles, we can invite the postmaster to a meal and still sue him. A Christian can fight for his right under the constitution. Yet we are fighting for the truth, not for personal conflicts. (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, vol. 59, p. 239

From this exchange we can perceive that Watchman Nee drew a distinction between a lawsuit filed for personal gain or interest, such as the one recorded in 1 Corinthians, and those involving the protection of basic freedoms and the defense of the truth.

Originally posted by sonship
Thanks for a benefit of a doubt on sincerity.
I hope you're ready to do some reading because you may get [b]more than one post on this litigation matter.

[quote] Please read all of First Corinthians 6:1-6 -

Does anyone of you who has a case against another dare to be judged before the unrighteous and not before the saints ? (v.1) ...[text shortened]...
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/libel-litigations/WNee.html

There is more to be said.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Fine but the admonition of scripture is not to enter into litigation, in fact it states that you should let yourself be wronged. If Witness Lee had followed that admonition, would he not simply have let himself be wronged? If not why not? and there is a Biblical procedure that Christ alluded to when you have a matter of concern with a fellow believe ...[text shortened]... ot know about this scriptural principle? I bet he did and yet he chose to enter into litigation.

Fine but the admonition of scripture is not to enter into litigation, in fact it states that you should let yourself be wronged. If Witness Lee had followed that admonition, would he not simply have let himself be wronged?

“If your brother or sisterb sins, go and point out their fault, just

If not why not? and there is a Biblical procedure that Christ alluded to when you have a matter of concern with a fellow believer,

Finally, we are cruelly and unjustly maligned as being a “nonChristian cult.” A nonChristian does not believe as we do that every word of the Bible is inspired by God, that He is the Triune God Father, Son, and Spirit, that God was incarnate in the flesh in the Person of the Lord Jesus, that He died upon the cross shedding His blood for our sins, that He resurrected from the dead the third day, that He ascended to the right hand of God, that He also indwells us as our life, and that He is coming again to receive His own to Himself. This is the faith once for all delivered to the saints. We would fight for it. If we are not Christians, then no one is. But we know that all those who truly believe in the Person and redeeming work of such a Christ are the bloodwashed, born again children of God, true Christians.

“If your brother or sisterb sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Did Witness Lee not know about this scriptural principle? I bet he did and yet he chose to enter into litigation.

Had issues concerning differences in understanding of the truths of the Bible been the extent of the accusations made by those opposing the local churches, this Web site would be limited to answering those issues. However, writers from one particular source, the Christian World Liberation Front (CWLF), a group formed in Berkeley to reach radical youth on the 1970s college campus, went further to falsely accuse Witness Lee and the local churches of cultic practices including financial improprieties, deceitful recruiting, autocratic control of members, etc. Their accusations formed the basis of two books:

The God-Men by Neil Duddy and the Spiritual Counterfeits Project (SCP).

Many of the members of the local churches made phone calls and wrote letters to the authors and publishers protesting the falsity of these books’ serious allegations. The authors and publishers ignored these appeals from the Christians meeting in the local churches. In addition, Witness Lee and the local churches also published booklets and articles to refute these opposers’ misrepresentations and accusations. After unsuccessfully pleading with the authors and publishers of these books to retract their libelous content, second, more damaging editions of both books, as well as a third book entitled The New Cults, were published.

Because no legal action was taken by the local churches to protest the first editions of these books, a second generation of books and articles were published by others based almost entirely on the misinformation in the initial few books. After suffering defamation for almost a decade, and having exhausted all less aggressive means of reconciliation, Witness Lee and the local churches followed the Apostle Paul’s precedent of appealing to Caesar, that is, the legal system, for protection from his religious opponents (Acts 25:11).

Originally posted by sonship

Fine but the admonition of scripture is not to enter into litigation, in fact it states that you should let yourself be wronged. If Witness Lee had followed that admonition, would he not simply have let himself be wronged?

Here again you still regard this Lee's personal matter.
I told you that it was not merely a matter of PERSONAL wr ...[text shortened]... , the legal system, for protection from his religious opponents [b] (Acts 25:11). [/quote][/b]

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The Apostle Paul was on trial for his life and only appealed to Caesar to protect himself form harm. Witness Lee was under no such bodily harm and has a history of litigation against fellow Christians who do not profess the same beliefs or who are critical of his teaching. The similarity is far removed and the principle is being distorted out of sh ...[text shortened]... regations and stands unworthy to serve as an elder of the lord because he is not above reproach.

" But by the grace of God I am what I am; and His grace unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but on the contrary, I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God that was with me. " First Corinthians 15:10)

Originally posted by sonship
The Apostle Paul wrote somee 13 books of the 27 New Testament books. His own personal life was NOT his concern. His concern was that what God had entrusted to him might be wiped out.

None of the apostles had quite the clarity about God's economy as he. And by God's grace he labored more abundantly than all of them.

[quote] " But by the grace of Go ...[text shortened]... .
We know that his personal gain was not at stake.
And that is all I can write this morning.

Copied without permission from Defense and Confirmation Project -
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/

Fuller Theological Seminary‘s faculty panel conducted a multi-year review of the teachings of Witness Lee and the local churches and concluded “that the teachings and practices of the local churches and its members represent the genuine, historical, biblical Christian faith in every essential aspect.” They further reported, “We have found a great disparity between the perceptions that have been generated in some circles concerning the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the actual teachings found in their writings.”

Two leading apologetics ministries, Christian Research Institute (CRI) and Answers in Action (AIA), jointly conducted a six-year project to research the teaching and practice of the local churches. Hank Hanegraaff, the President of CRI concluded, “Finally, the local churches are an authentic expression of New Testament Christianity. Moreover, as a group forged in the cauldron of persecution, it has much to offer Western Christianity.” Similarly, Gretchen Passantino, Director of AIA and a co-author of some of the earliest criticisms of the local churches in the United States, wrote, “The teachings of Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and the local churches affirm the essential doctrinal positions of the historic Christian Church.” In a landmark issue of its Christian Research Journal, CRI published its own rebuttal of accusations against the local churches based on their reassessment of the teachings of Witness Lee. Elliot Miller, the Journal‘s editor-in-chief, authored a seven-part series of articles addressing many of the common misrepresentations of Witness Lee’s teaching.

On the witness stand in court Dr. John Melton
Questioning Lawyer Mr. Morgan.

Exposing lies about morality and financial crimes committed by Witness Lee -

MR. MORGAN: Have you had any opportunity to form any opinions as to the level of moral integrity of the people in that church?

DR. MELTON: I have never had any reason to question it. Certainly there have never been any reports of members being involved in scandal or involved in criminal activity or anything that you would think of along this line.

I am currently investigating another group in Chicago right now which has a high percentage of members who are involved in some form of criminal activity. There is nothing like that that’s ever even been hinted about the “Local Church.”

EDITOR’s NOTE: Dr. Melton was questioned concerning accusations of financial mismanagement only to establish the effect of such charges upon a reader. The charges were proven false by other witnesses involved in the financial transaction and also confirmed by the regional director of a Big Eight accounting firm, who reviewed the financial transaction in question and had full access to the records.

MR. MORGAN: Let me go on now to something else. Are you familiar with the allegation that talks about the $235,000 of Stuttgart?

DR. MELTON: Yes.

MR. MORGAN: Can you tell the court in your opinion what impact this charge and the statements that are made in there would have on Witness Lee?

DR. MELTON: Well, the charge is basically that he is taking money given to the church for a church project and using it for his own or for a small group in Anaheim’s personal betterment, that there is a charge here of malfeasance, improper manipulation of funds.

MR. MORGAN: What impact is that going to have on somebody like Witness Lee?

DR. MELTON: Well, no church leader can survive for very long if the church members think he is using their money for purposes other than what they have been told they are giving it for.

MR. MORGAN: You will notice also that immediately before that paragraph there is a mention of some other business transactions. Do you see that?

DR. MELTON: Yes.

MR. MORGAN: As an author can you give the court any opinion as to the effect that the paragraph about the $235,000 has in relation to these other events?

DR. MELTON: Well, the implication-there is nothing said about Day Star of California [a defunct California corporation] that is particularly offensive in and of itself, but placed in the context of discussing financial matters, particularly Lee’s personal financial matters, the accusation of malfeasance in this one case would tend to say, well, there is probably something going on in the financial matters discussed earlier. He’s maybe siphoning off church funds to use in his personal business venture or something.

MR. MORGAN: In your opinion, would that be a natural reaction for an average reader to think that, well, maybe there was something wrong with these other transactions as well?

MR. MORGAN: In your opinion, would that be a natural reaction for an average reader to think that, well, maybe there was something wrong with these other transactions as well?

DR. MELTON: Certainly, given the continual accusations of so-called cult leaders; that is one of the things they do.

MR. MORGAN: Another question now, Doctor. Have you found in your reading that The God-Men is being used as some sort of a source today even for other writers?

DR. MELTON: I have been monitoring for at least a year now other anti-cult materials. As they have come out, they have continually quoted from or drawn from The God-Men. They are not fresh studies of the “Local Church.” They are merely repetitions of material that’s taken more or less blatantly from The God-Men.

MR. MORGAN: In other words, whatever the lies are that are created here are being perpetuated by others just accepting that?

DR. MELTON: Yes. I have a fairly thick file now of other materials that have been drawn directly from The God-Men, the Inter-Varsity edition.

MR. MORGAN: Do you have an opinion as to why these other writers would just blindly accept what is in this book?

DR. MELTON: This book is the only book-length study of Witness Lee by an outsider, that has had any kind of commercial publication. They have accepted it as authority, based in part because it is the only book available and also because it comes from SCP. SCP has built a good reputation overall in Christian circles.

Another exchane between Judge and expert witness H. Newton Maloney:

JUDGE SEYRANIAN: We have had testimony here, Professor, that the days of McCarthyism, where you label somebody as a communist, even if you have a judicial trial that determines you are not a communist, it is a stigma that stays with you.

Do you feel that if a certain group were classified as a cult in this day and age as the average layperson understands a cult, that stigma would remain in spite of the fact that, let’s say, you had a judicial determination that it really is not a cult? Do you think some people still want to believe the worst in things until, as you say, the accusers retract, as they say?

DR. MALONY: I would presume so. Though I think the judicial process certainly would help in that regard. It’s a little like the church-state issue, though. There are people who will say, “What does the state know about what we really know? How can they make a judgment in that case?” I think the judicial process is a very appropriate process because a group certainly has the right, being innocent, to be proven guilty and to confront their accusers.

I was interested in a recent Christian publication in which one of the advisers to the Spiritual Counterfeits Project, a social scientist like myself, made what I thought was an outlandish, naive statement, that in our day and age Christians can’t accuse others of their heterodoxy, or something to that effect, without a fear of being sued. My thought was, we certainly have the right of free speech, but we have the responsibility of responsible speech of someone asking us what we mean, and if it is defamatory, I think there is a legal process that has the right to be undertaken, and certainly that does right the wrong at one level.

The lawsuit was not over doctrinal differences, but libel, claiming The God-Men presented a false, malicious and damaging portrayal of Witness Lee and the local churches. Yet the many charges used by SCP to create the “cult” image were related to the churches’ beliefs and practices. Their accusations were a mixture of theology, psychology, sociology, and “factual” events. Thus, the total misrepresentation of the book, including doctrine, had to be demonstrated. Since SCP had set itself up as the expert in judging the local churches, it was essential to obtain the testimony of some who were more qualified in the fields involved. For this reason, qualified experts in each area were sought out and asked to study the local churches and to evaluate the charges in The God-Men. The conclusions of truly qualified experts concerning both the local churches and their critics can be found in The Experts Speak.

Why did those in the local churches bring suit against other Christians? The first choice in resolving conflicts among Christians is, of course, not the law courts (1 Cor. 6). According to the admonition of Scripture, attempts should be made by Christian brothers to solve a problem by way of Christian fellowship (Matt. 18:15). Unfortunately, the attitude of SCP from the early 1970′s was never that of brothers seeking truth or reconciliation with other Christians. Rather, from the first, their attitude was to judge, condemn, and destroy a “spiritual counterfeit” that they never really understood. SCP ignored repeated efforts by those in the churches to point out their error.

Originally posted by sonship
Copied without permission from Defense and Confirmation Project -
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/

[quote] [b] Fuller Theological Seminary‘s faculty panel conducted a multi-year review of the teachings of Witness Lee and the local churches and concluded “that the teachings and practices of the local churches and its members represent the genuine, h ...[text shortened]... ear study of the Watchtower Society and the Jehovah's Witnesses would yield as their conclusion.