Jehovah's Witness a Masonic Offshoot ?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sounds like Alister Crowley's occult book, magic in theory and practice. He also laid emphasis on the self, infcat it was paramount to his system.

Originally posted by sonship
Show me exactly where you see some "sound like" parallels for my closer examination.

Or do you prefer just to drop 25 word of less innuendos ?

[b]Elaborate on the comparison you speak of.[/b]

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have, its in my text, your religion has an emphasis on self, so did Crowley. Its not very difficult to understand.

I have, its in my text, your religion has an emphasis on self, so did Crowley. Its not very difficult to understand.

CHAPTER TEN
DEALING WITH SELF

Now we come to see the matter of dealing with self. This experience is very closely related to dealing with the flesh. This is an important experience in the stage of the cross.

If we desire to deal with self, we need firstly to define what self is. There are many spiritual terms which we use quite often, but when we press for the real meaning, it is difficult to explain them. So it is with self. We often hear people speak about self, but few can define it. What, really, is self? Simply, self is the soul life with the emphasis on human thoughts and human opinions. We can discover this from the Bible, where self is clearly mentioned.

Let us first read Matthew 16:21-25, “From that time began Jesus to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, (or, Pity thyself), Lord: this shall never be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindset not the things of God, but the things of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.”

In this passage the Lord showed His disciples in verse 21 how He must suffer, be killed, and raised up again. All that the Lord said here is the will of God, because the cross of the Lord is the will of God ordained in eternity. But in verse 22 Peter had an opinion, and he voiced it to the Lord: “Be it far from thee, Lord.” Therefore, the Lord in verse 23 rebuked him, saying that he minded not the things of God, but those of men. The things of God are the will of God, or the cross. The things of men are to pity yourself and receive not the cross. What the Lord desired was the will of God, but what Peter cared about was the human thought. Therefore in verse 24 the Lord asked the disciples to deny themselves, take up the cross and follow Him. When we compare this word with the preceding verse, we comprehend that this self which the Lord asked us to deny is the human thought. The Lord asked the disciples to deny and forsake self, which meant to lay aside their own thought. When the Lord asked the disciples to receive the cross, this meant that they should receive the mind of God or the will of God. Therefore, the Lord was asking the disciples here to put aside their own thought and receive the cross, which is the will of God.

From this we see that self has much to do with human thought. Yet self is not human thought, and human thought is not self itself. Therefore in verse 25 the Lord goes on to say that whoever would save his life shall lose it, and whoever shall lose his life for the Lord’s sake shall find it. The word “life” in the original is soul, or soul life. The denying of self mentioned in the preceding verse was followed immediately by the losing of the soul life. This indicates that the self that was mentioned is the soul life spoken of directly following. Soul life is self itself.

In this passage the word of the Lord follows step by step. In verse 22 Peter admonished the Lord to pity Himself; in verse 23 the Lord pointed out that this is human thought or human opinion; in verse 24 the Lord traced this to the root by saying that this opinion is self. Therefore we need to forsake and deny it. Then in verse 25 the Lord goes to the root of self by showing us that the very self is the soul life. If the soul life is being put to death, which means that self is being denied, there will be no more human opinion. In this passage, verse 23 speaks about the opinion, verse 24 about self, and verse 25 about the soul life. Each verse mentions one matter, step by step, very clearly.

Therefore, we can find here a definition for self: self in essence is the soul life, while the expression of self is opinion. Self, soul life, and opinion are three aspects of one thing. This may be likened to Christ Himself as the very God, and the expression of Christ as the Holy Spirit. The three are one. God incarnated and expressed is Christ, while the soul life expressed is self. When Christ is expressed before men and touched by men, He is the Holy Spirit. Likewise, self is expressed before men and touched by men in the form of human opinion and human viewpoint. Just as when we touch the Holy Spirit, we touch Christ; so when we touch human opinion and viewpoint, we touch self as well as the soul life.

Cont.

Cont. The Experience of Life by Witness Lee

Let us read John 5:30, “I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge…I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”

From this verse we learn that it is the same with the Lord Jesus as it is with us in the self being expressed in the form of opinion. First, the Lord said here that He can of Himself do nothing; then He said that He does not seek His own will. From this we see that “myself” and “mine own will” are identical. His doing nothing of Himself means that He does not seek His own will. Hence, it is clear that self is focused in the idea and opinion. Self is expressed in opinion, and opinion is the expression of self. For example, if in a certain fellowship meeting concerning service a certain brother continually expresses his ideas and opinions, we cannot say that is sin, the world, or the flesh. But we will surely say that is self, because self expresses itself in opinions. A person who is full of ideas and opinions is full of self and the expression of self as well.

Now let us read Job 38:1-2, “Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?”

Job chapters 3 through 37 are records of human words and opinions. In these thirty-five long chapters Job and his three friends, and later Elihu, were talking, arguing and expressing their opinions continually. Therefore, soon after they had completely expressed themselves, God came forth and rebuked them, saying, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” After Job was enlightened by God, he said in 42:3-6, “Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge?…I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth thee: wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” At first Job spoke words without knowledge and expressed his own opinion, but at the end he abhorred himself and repented in dust and ashes. From this we see that Job’s opinion is his self which he abhors. His opinion is the expression of his self.

In the whole Bible, the person who spoke the most was Job. God afflicted him with circumstances and also arranged that he be surrounded by his four friends. In this way all the words within him were drawn out. He had his own opinions, his own ideas, and he did not yield to others’ viewpoints. He felt that he had done no wrong and that there was no need for him to deal with sin, the world, or the conscience. Therefore he beat his chest, desiring to reason with the Righteous One. Indeed the difficulty with Job was not sin, the world, or the conscience. His difficulty was his self. His unbroken self was a problem which prevented him from knowing God.

Many in the church are like Job; they have much to say. Actually, a sinning one, or one who loves the world, does not speak much, because he is aware of his mistakes and shortcomings. The conscience of all those who do wrong is defiled, and they cannot lift up their head. Therefore, they do not speak much and are easier to be helped and led. But those who are of Job’s type seemingly have no touch of sin, nor do they love the world; yet they are extremely self-righteous and always think they are right. Concerning the church and the things of God they have many opinions and ideas. Thus, all day long they talk about this and that, and even speak of things they do not know. This kind of people is the most difficult to be helped and led; they cause others to feel incapable of helping them.

A person who is full of self always brings many difficulties into the church. The reason for so many divisions in Christianity today is not only the sinfulness and worldliness of man, but more so the self of man. Many people serve the Lord by helping brothers and sisters, yet in reality they want others to follow their ideas and opinions, their viewpoints and methods. The result is many divisions in the church today. Martin Luther said that within him there is a greater pope than the one in Rome—himself. In the church, if self is not broken, every person is a pope, and everyone will become a division.

Besides Job in the Bible, Peter is also a model example of one who is full of self. Peter’s self was expressed to the uttermost because he was the most talkative one and had the most opinions. On many occasions in the Gospels Peter spoke and expressed his opinions. There was not one subject concerning which he did not have an opinion or idea. Therefore each time the Lord dealt with him, He dealt with his opinion and idea. The teaching of denying self in Matthew 16 was spoken because of Peter. On the night of His betrayal, the Lord Jesus said to His disciples, “All ye shall be offended in me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.” When Peter heard this, his self was immediately drawn out, and he sa...

Originally posted by sonship

Wow you have made yourself equal to God, you have become just as Satan stated, 'just like God'. I bow to the God-man Jaywill. Forgive me master I am a poor sinner I should have recognised your divinity sooner.

The salvation that God has prepared makes man sons of God.
To be sons of God is to be God in life and nature yet not in His hea ...[text shortened]... orant complaint is not against Witness Lee or the local churches. It is against the word of God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The worldwide flood shows that God did not approve of the sons of God mingling with women. God is jealous. 😏

The worldwide flood shows that God did not approve of the sons of God mingling with women. God is jealous.

Originally posted by sonship

I have, its in my text, your religion has an emphasis on self, so did Crowley. Its not very difficult to understand.

I will refer you to a specific chapter of the book [b]The Experience of Life on "Dealing with the self".

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p

A sample concerning how we teach about the SELF -

[qu ...[text shortened]... so when we touch human opinion and viewpoint, we touch self as well as the soul life.
[/quote][/b]

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sounds like Alister Crowley's occult book, magic in theory and practice. He also laid emphasis on the self, infcat it was paramount to his system.

RJHInds, you may have a problem with God mingling with man. But if you would think about it a little bit, to be born of God or born again is more than receiving a ticket to be saved.

To be born of God is of course to have God to grow within the one into whom He has been born.

In your human life birth was not an end in itself. Birth was for maturation. Birth was for development into maturity.

If you think of being born of God as the beginning of a new life it should not be hard to realize that this BIRTH is for the GROWTH of a life of man with divine life.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
That is voodoo!

What was the outcome of this thread please?

Originally posted by sonship
Why do you say that what I quoted from [b]The Experience of Life is voodoo ?

This reminds me of the Pharisees saying that Jesus had a demon.
But take any specific paragraph or sentences and please tell me why you think it is voodoo.[/b]

YouTube

Originally posted by divegeester
What was the outcome of this thread please?