1. Account suspended
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    22 Apr '15 12:031 edit
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    The answer is "no," JWs are just one of many Christian cults.
    Can you tell us what makes them a cult?
  2. Cape Town
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    22 Apr '15 12:32
    Originally posted by sonship
    The memorial is quite close to the gravestone. Making a rational that the symbol is NOT on the gravestone, is an accurate objection. But I think it is a "weak" one.
    I still don't get it. What is it a objection (albeit weak) too? It was merely a correction.
    What does the symbol appearing on the grave site or memorial signify? What does it tell us about the beliefs of the person who died? Who put it there?
    You seem to think the existence of a symbol on the gravesite or memorial and the proximity of the memorial somehow demonstrates something. On the contrary, it is interesting, but without knowing more, it tells us nothing of interest with regards to the question of the OP.

    It seems to be in close proximity to it in order to purposely draw attention to the connection. It is after all called a memorial to him.
    By whom and why?
  3. Subscribersonhouse
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    22 Apr '15 12:331 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    The thread title is a genuine question.

    [b] Proof: Charles Taze Russell & Jehovah's Witnesses Watchtower is Masonic Gnosticism


    The video recommended is one demonstrating that the founder of Jehovah's Witnesses was a Masonic Gnostic.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSofpcdjj_s[/b]
    So what if they are? Does that mean you can now denounce them as from the devil or something?

    What is it with you and others here trying to denounce JW's? Seems to me you should be calling them brothers, maybe cousins but why denounce them?
  4. Cape Town
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    22 Apr '15 13:45
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So what if they are? Does that mean you can now denounce them as from the devil or something?

    What is it with you and others here trying to denounce JW's? Seems to me you should be calling them brothers, maybe cousins but why denounce them?
    Many Christians do not get along with each other. In my home town, population approx 200,000 (more than half of which are children), there are approximately 150 denominations.
    Some Churches are willing to get along just a little bit such as sharing a building, or attending each others services without offence. Others call each other's leaders 'the antichrist' or declare each other non-Christian.
    In general people get very sensitive about doctrinal differences, especially when they don't really have very much reason for those differences other than tradition or personal preference. If you can't defend a belief you get very sensitive when someone questions it - as we see on these forums all the time.
  5. Germany
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    22 Apr '15 14:14
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Can you tell us what makes them a cult?
    I mean that in a non-derogatory sense, i.e. one of the many variations of Christianity.
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    22 Apr '15 14:19
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    I mean that in a non-derogatory sense, i.e. one of the many variations of Christianity.
    the correct term is a denomination I think 😀
  7. R
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    22 Apr '15 14:50
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I have no idea nor do I care.


    This leaves me with the thought that maybe you are afraid to look into it more. The leadership might turn on you? You may find yourself getting into trouble for snooping around.

    I would think you would be curious. You rail against the symbol of the cross. Why you don't object to one being used to memorialize a founding teacher of the JWs, I don't understand.


    To us Brother Russell is just like any other Witness. Many of his teachings were sound, many of them were not and have been discarded over time.


    The failed prophecies, I suppose. You don't really enumerate in detail which ones you no longer hold as his students.


    But what is striking about his may of teaching as opposed to TV Evangelists who use feigned emotional content is that he always appeals to reason.


    So you're saying basically "At least he wasn't as bad as this guy or that guy over here." On a relative sense that may be true. I never said Jehovah's Witnesses had a monopoly on questionable procedures.

    After all the NT said imposters will go from bad to worse.
  8. R
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    22 Apr '15 14:553 edits
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So what if they are? Does that mean you can now denounce them as from the devil or something?

    What is it with you and others here trying to denounce JW's? Seems to me you should be calling them brothers, maybe cousins but why denounce them?
    What would we do without some atheist champions of tolerance coming around with crocodile tears?

    Yes, people who read the Bible argue about serious misuses of it. And you atheists love every minute of it. All the more rationale for you to think there is nothing to God's existence then.

    When the term "brothers" we mean - have the same life. If some won't receive the life, there is no reason to say they have the same life.

    In fact they are fighting AGAINST that one divine life which is Christ the Son of God.
  9. R
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    22 Apr '15 15:09
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I still don't get it. What is it a objection (albeit weak) too? It was merely a correction.
    What does the symbol appearing on the grave site or memorial signify? What does it tell us about the beliefs of the person who died? Who put it there?
    You seem to think the existence of a symbol on the gravesite or memorial and the proximity of the memorial someh ...[text shortened]... raw attention to the connection. It is after all called a memorial to him.

    By whom and why?[/b]
    Would you like it is we place a stone sculpture of a Bible and perhaps a cross on your grave stone?

    Would you not care knowing that someone was going to carve a Bible verse on your gravestone?

    Perhaps, a number of feet away we erect a "memorial" near your burial place with a figure of a opened Bible. Somehow I don't think you would appreciate this "memorial" to you. Somehow I think you would find it unrepresentative of anything you ever stood for.

    Or maybe some people who read your posts decide after your demise that a crescent moon or a star of David be placed as a memorial near your tomb.

    I think you would object. I don't think today you'd shrug and say it had no significance. I don't think you wish today to be remembered as having anything to do with theism or traditional symbols strongly implying theism.
  10. R
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    22 Apr '15 15:14
    Robbie while you say you know about the pyramid in memorial to Russell but care not, this fellow felt differently. He says he knew, was bothered, looked up some things at least.

    He says everyone in the Witnesses knew about it.


    YouTube
  11. R
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    22 Apr '15 15:253 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    You seem to think the existence of a symbol on the gravesite or memorial and the proximity of the memorial somehow demonstrates something. On the contrary, it is interesting, but without knowing more, it tells us nothing of interest with regards to the question of the OP.


    What is written on the pyramid is significant.

    Watchtower Bible and Tract Society

    Dead With Christ

    Risen With Christ

    I B S A
    Initials standing for International Bible Students Association

    It is not concealed that the structure is a memorial to Charles Russell. It is not coincidentally near his gravestone. Whose the I B S A ?

    The Bible Student movement is the name adopted by a Millennialist[1] Restorationist Christian movement that emerged from the teachings and ministry of Charles Taze Russell, also known as Pastor Russell. Members of the movement have variously referred to themselves as Bible Students, International Bible Students, Associated Bible Students, or Independent Bible Students. The origins of the movement are associated with the formation of Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society in 1881.


    -Wiki

    The plot thickens. (No pun intended).
  12. Account suspended
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    22 Apr '15 15:35
    Originally posted by sonship
    Robbie while you say you know about the pyramid in memorial to Russell but care not, this fellow felt differently. He says he knew, was bothered, looked up some things at least.

    He says everyone in the Witnesses knew about it.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yTEriTa6Y
    Jaywill you have been caught posting material that is not only blatantly false but ignores every fact provided for your convenience. Russell was not nor ever was a Freemason. I am sorry to burst your bubble but its a simple fact corroborated by the organisations involved. The source that you got the reference from makes ludicrous claims in the most sensationalistic manner stating that Freemasons are and I quote, ' expert liars through unholy rituals that make them unrepentant demoniacally possessed duplicitous goat servants of the Devil'. Now while such rhetoric may appeal to those nurtured on emotionalism but for us accustomed to reason its simply nonsense and has been rightly condemned by every one here as a monstrous perversion of the facts.

    Please don't expect me to read any more references until you denounce this one for you are appearing to be a kind of charlatan purveyor of falsehoods.
  13. Account suspended
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    22 Apr '15 15:39
    Originally posted by sonship
    You seem to think the existence of a symbol on the gravesite or memorial and the proximity of the memorial somehow demonstrates something. On the contrary, it is interesting, but without knowing more, it tells us nothing of interest with regards to the question of the OP.


    What is written on the pyramid is significant.

    Watchtower Bibl ...[text shortened]... s Watch Tower Tract Society in 1881. [/quote]

    -Wiki

    The plot thickens. (No pun intended).
    So we were formerly known as the International Bible students, so what? What would you have us call ourselves the Bonzo dog doo-dah band?
  14. R
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    22 Apr '15 15:533 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Jaywill you have been caught posting material that is not only blatantly false but ignores every fact provided for your convenience. Russell was not nor ever was a Freemason. I am sorry to burst your bubble but its a simple fact corroborated by the organisations involved. The source that you got the reference from makes ludicrous claims in the mos ...[text shortened]... il you denounce this one for you are appearing to be a kind of charlatan purveyor of falsehoods.
    Jaywill you have been caught posting material that is not only blatantly false but ignores every fact provided for your convenience. Russell was not nor ever was a Freemason.


    I'll consider your claim in the future as I study this more.
    I know people can exaggerate and start rumors.

    It is not by any means devastating to me if he was not.
    There's two much else about the man and his teachings that merit disappointment with him being a good Bible teacher.

    So I will take an "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" on whether he was ever a Mason. I studied with the Rosecrutians at one time. I bought some of their books. I received some communication from them as a perspective member who seemed interested in their teachings.

    I am sure no Rosicrucian chapter would say jaywill / sonship ( or real name) was a member of the Rosicrucians.

    So I intend to explore Russell's leanings or sympathizes with Masoninic Gnosticism IF NOT owned as their member by them today.

    It is true that some conspiracy people are liable to blame the Illuminati or the Masons for all kinds of things.


    I am sorry to burst your bubble but its a simple fact corroborated by the organisations involved. The source that you got the reference from makes ludicrous claims in the most sensationalistic manner stating that Freemasons are and I quote, ' expert liars through unholy rituals that make them unrepentant demoniacally possessed duplicitous goat servants of the Devil'.


    Did you read that in the latter days the false teachers would be deceiving "and BEING ... deceived".

    I think what we have is a man Charles Russell who was in some degree taken in by the Gnostic numerology and pyramid study closely associated with the Masons. Do you think that is an unfair statement?


    Now while such rhetoric may appeal to those nurtured on emotionalism but for us accustomed to reason its simply nonsense and has been rightly condemned by every one here as a monstrous perversion of the facts.


    Okay, you want to talk about emotionalism. So we will.

    Your group Jehovah's Witnesses is grounded in hatred. It is strongly grounded on the emotion of hatred for Christianity.

    You may not know yet, but as a young Christian I had some friends of the Watchtower outreach. I cannot forget the disgust that one of them showed at my naive suggestion that we both go into a Christian bookstore.

    It was not YET known to me how deep was his revulsion to all things of Christian Bible / book stores. You door knockers can be very pleasant in initial meetings. But I think emotional side eventually comes out as the hatred for Christ worshipping Christian congregations


    Please don't expect me to read any more references until you denounce this one for you are appearing to be a kind of charlatan purveyor of falsehoods.


    I don't think you have yet explained the cross on the memorial in contradiction to your renowned opposition to the very symbol everywhere else.

    Explain that. How come they didn't carve a "torture stake" there instead ??
  15. R
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    22 Apr '15 15:561 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    So we were formerly known as the International Bible students, so what? What would you have us call ourselves the Bonzo dog doo-dah band?
    Why the cross on the memorial when you write strongly against it in your liturature ?
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