Matthew 7:21-23

Originally posted by divegeester
Because Jesus never claimed to be this individual, as you well know. My caring or not caring what an Archangel is, is irrelevant.

how do you know if you don't know what it is?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how do you know if you don't know what it is?

How do I know that Jesus never claimed to be the Archangel Michael? Because he didn't say it, it's not written in any of the Gospels as you well now.

You seem to be pretending to be dense in this thread also.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
New International Version
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

New Living Translation
"The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

It seems that you are once again talking pants and incapable of rational objective thought. Interesting that you singled this verse out but i ...[text shortened]... d as the Word, God’s own Spokesman, he was the perfect expression of Jehovah’s wisdom.—John 1:1.

Another Arian challenge:

In verse 22, wisdom says: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.” More than just wisdom must be involved here, for that quality never was “produced.” It never began to exist because Jehovah has always existed and he has always been wise. (Psalm 90:2)

The paragraph establishes precisely the point that I made. How would God HAVE wisdom to CREATE Wisdom? Eternally Wisdom has been in and with God.

So the polytheists tries to recover from this flaw by saying what Proverbs 8 conveys must be MORE that Wisdom. What would that be ? He should have said that it must be something LESS than Wisdom.

But let's go with the dubious concept of God "creating" first something which is MORE than His own Divine Wisdom, whatever that is suppose to be.

God’s Son, however, was “the firstborn of all creation.” He was produced, or created;

So the polytheists says the Son of God is MORE than the Divine Wisdom of God. So that is suppose to subject Him to having had to have been created.

Christ is only created in that He was incarnated as a man, and man is an item of God's creation (Gen. 1:26). Since He became flesh and blood and bones as part of creation Paul says He was the absolute preeminent matter in all creation - and Paul furnishes us with why that is with the word "BECAUSE" ...

All things were created in Him ... through Him and unto Him (v.16)

That is really not an interpretation. It is a QUOTATION.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, *** BECAUSE *** ... in Him all things were created ... etc.

Is there room to take that as Christ is something GREATER than the Wisdom of God, (which has been as long as GOD Himself has been,) was the first item created ? I think not. And the ancient brothers were correct to renounce the polytheism of Arius in his proto-Jehovah Witness style attempt to make the Son of God the first created angel.

If we say Christ is GREATER and MORE than the eternal WIsdom of God, this makes it LESS likely rather than more, that He was created.

Robbie continues:

he was the earliest of all of Jehovah’s achievements.

Robbie is saying something GREATER and MORE than the very intrinsic eternal Wisdom of the eternal God was the first achievement of God. Seeking to recover his error he makes it worse.

If this thing is GREATER than the Wisdom of God then it must be even more intrinsic to God's own being. Greatness is determined by closeness to the Great One. If a matter is GREATER than the Wisdom which God has always possessed then it must be MORE intrinsic to the Great One - God.

... (Colossians 1:15) The Son existed before the earth and the heavens, as described in Proverbs. And as the Word, God’s own Spokesman, he was the perfect expression of Jehovah’s wisdom.—John 1:1.

Some English version, as I said before, do prefer "created" or "formed" or "made" in Proverbs 8:22. Follow that rendering if [edit] you wish. I will follow "POSSESSED" as I indicated in many good English translations.

How many FIRSTS should there be?
How many LASTS should there be?

Jehovah God, uncreated, unmade, unformed but from eternity to eternity says that He is the First and the Last in Isaiah 43:6 but also in these verses as well -

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, whom I called; I am He; I am the First, I am also the Last." (Isaiah 48:12)

God was incarnated as a man to pass through death as our Redeemer. He says as the Son of God that He is the First and the Last in Revelation 1:17. The polytheistic Arianism of Robbie would have it that we believe there is:

1.) Jehovah God the PRIMARY First.
2.) The Son of God as the SECONDARY First.

He would have us believe that the primary First CREATED the SECONDARY First - Christ the Son of God. He reasons that the primary First Jehovah made the secondary First before making anything else.

This secondary First of Revelation 1:17 , this First and the Last number 2, is an angel called Michael (aka Jesus Christ).

Christians rather believe there is only ONE the beginning and the end and only ONE "the First and the Last" and only ONE "the Alpha and the Omega" - God Himself, albeit mysteriously Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Robbie's attempt to make the personified divine attribute of Proverbs 8 a created matter greater than Divine Wisdom is a case of "open mouth and change feet."

Originally posted by sonship
Another Arian challenge:

[quote] In verse 22, wisdom says: [b] “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.” More than just wisdom must be involved here, for that quality never was “produced.” It never began to exist because Jehovah has always existed and he has always been wise. (Psalm 90:2 ...[text shortened]... bs 8[/b] a created matter greater than Divine Wisdom is a case of "open mouth and change feet."[/b]

too much waffle - never read it after Arian challenge. . .

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

never read it after Arian challenge. . .

Ask me if I care.

Originally posted by sonship

never read it after Arian challenge. . .

Ask me if I care.

you should care because you claim to be a disciple of Christ and the scriptures admonish one to pay attention to ones, 'art of teaching'. If your text is too waffly it diminishes the import of the text. Dont you get taught how to deliver public talks in your church? or is it a rather haphazard affair with persons being 'moved', by the spirit contrary to the scriptures which state that God is a God of order?

1 Corinthians 14:33 - For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the meetings of God's holy people.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you should care you claim to be a disciple of Christ and the scriptures admonish one to pay attention to ones, 'art of teaching'.

"The factious man after the first and second admonition refuse."

I really don't care that you didn't read it.

Originally posted by sonship
"The factious man after the first and second admonition refuse."

I really don't care that you didn't read it.

Yes but i did not read it for a reason, that being that it was waffly, if you are a Christian surely you must care that your intended audience is being put off by your inability to be succinct and highlight the salient points rather than waffle.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes but i did not read it for a reason, that being that it was waffly, if you are a Christian surely you must care that your intended audience is being put off by your inability to be succinct and highlight the salient points rather than waffle.

Sonship has made a good point.

Originally posted by kevinlee123
Sonship has made a good point.

Possibly, but I would wager no one knows because who can be bothered to read his monoglue posts.

Originally posted by divegeester
Possibly, but I would wager no one knows because who can be bothered to read his monoglue posts.

monoglue posts? Does this mean his posts have the power to glue you to your chair? Aha, so this is why you will not read his entire posts! You don't want to find your butt... glued to a chair.

Surely this has happened to you before... you struggled to read through an entire post as he was tip toeing into your corporate office. And then, as you were being distracted (by an entire post) he Krazy glued your krazy *ss to your corporate chair. This is all beginning to make sense now...

fool you once, shame on him
fool you twice, shame on you

Originally posted by kevinlee123
Sonship has made a good point.

really? I wouldn't know because I refuse to wade through the waffle.

Originally posted by kevinlee123
Sonship has made a good point.

No he just waffles aimlessly on and on

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No he just waffles aimlessly on and on

The referred to post had three major points as targets.
While they were wordy perhaps, all three targets were hit.

1.) Anything more than God's Wisdom is less likely to have been created rather than more likely. This is makes it more likely that He possessed that attribute rather than created it.

2.) Paul tells us the because of Christ being Firstborn of all creation. It is His preeminence as the Creator. It is the preeminence of God Himself even in His incarnation.

3.) There is no primary "the First and the Last" that created a secondary "the First and the Last".

Three bull's eye hits.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No he just waffles aimlessly on and on

You are the one that waffles on and on and when you can't you get amnesia.