Matthew 7:21-23

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Can you tell us what an archangel is so that we can discern whether Jesus or the Bible makes a claim that he is one or not?

You claim that Jesus is the Angel Micheal, where does Jesus claim that he is this individual?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. Proverbs 8

Can Jaywill or any of the other idolaters explain these verses?

The Recovery Version says "Jehovah POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, Before His works of old."

To possess is not to create exclusively.
And if the personification is of Wisdom there was no time that God was without Wisdom.

And furthermore how would God HAVE the Wisdom to create Wisdom. So Proverbs 8 cannot be used to prove Jesus was the first created being.

God from eternity has not been without the Word, the Logos (John 1:1) and God from eternity has never NOT possessed His Wisdom.

Commentary on Proverbs 8:22-31

(Read Proverbs 8:22-31)

The Son of God declares himself to have been engaged in the creation of the world. How able, how fit is the Son of God to be the Saviour of the world, who was the Creator of it! The Son of God was ordained, before the world, to that great work. Does he delight in saving wretched sinners, and shall not we delight in his salvation?

Other translations which agree with the RcV-

English Standard Version
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

New American Standard Bible
"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

King James Bible
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"The LORD already possessed me long ago, when his way began, before any of his works.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

King James 2000 Bible
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

American King James Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

American Standard Version
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.

Darby Bible Translation
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

It is possible to find some English versions that read created or formed or made rather that "possessed". I go along with "possessed" which would go along with the Word through whom all things came into being was with God and was God (John 1:1).

The Word became flesh (John 1:14) and is "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1)

Robbie calls worshipping Jesus our God and Savior paganism and idolatry. He is blind and I think he commits blasphemy as well.

Originally posted by chaney3
Sonship.......I have been silent for a few days.....but, I have a very sincere question for you. Is it possible for someone like myself to worship God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.....without EVER fully being able to understand the Triune God/Trinity/Godhead??? I agree that faith must be involved here....but, how is a human being really supposed to be able to FULLY u ...[text shortened]... that said.....can YOU say that you understand this doctrine FULLY, without any problems at all??

Man is capable of believing many things, if they are coherent and if he makes room for them. If you start with a foundation of loving God, then the Bible makes a lot more sense and you'll find the ability to make room for God, in your mind, and in your heart.

(Sorry, didn't mean to butt in.)

Originally posted by sonship
Apparently Robbie does not understand the significance of believing [b]INTO Christ.[/b]

Perhaps because he hasn't made room for Him. He's way too full of himself.

Originally posted by divegeester
You claim that Jesus is the Angel Micheal, where does Jesus claim that he is this individual?

Michael is an archangel, tell us what that is to see if we can discern whether Jesus claims to be one or not.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Perhaps because he hasn't made room for Him. He's way too full of himself.

Gee that's bitter just cause I am way knowledgeable about the Bible doesn't mean that I am full of myself, it just means I am way knowledgeable about the Bible.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Man is capable of believing many things, if they are coherent and if he makes room for them. If you start with a foundation of loving God, then the Bible makes a lot more sense and you'll find the ability to make room for God, in your mind, and in your heart.

(Sorry, didn't mean to butt in.)

Hi Suzianne. No problem with the 'butting in'. However, you didn't really answer my question. I was almost ready to give up on this forum, because mostly what I am finding is that NOBODY can agree on anything!!!! If God gave us a book, that we call the Bible, so that we may get to know Him and understand Him......then He did NOT give us such a good book!!! Otherwise, all humans would be on the same page, and believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit......and NO disputes would exist.

Do YOU fully understand and comprehend the Trinity with no problems at all??? I am not the only one having this difficulty....from what I read on this forum....there is quite a debate going on. And regarding the Bible.....if this 'book' were crystal clear on who Jesus truly is....then we would not have a thread titled 'Did Jesus Exist'. These are ALL valid points.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Gee that's bitter just cause I am way knowledgeable about the Bible doesn't mean that I am full of myself, it just means I am way knowledgeable about the Bible.

It just means you are way knowledgeable about your Bible. Made as it is from the dogma of man, this is not especially impressive.

Originally posted by sonship

Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. Proverbs 8

Can Jaywill or any of the other idolaters explain these verses?

The Recovery Version says [b]"Jehovah POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, Before His works of old."

To possess is not to create exclusively. ...[text shortened]... our God and Savior paganism and idolatry. He is blind and I think he commits blasphemy as well.[/b]

New International Version
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

New Living Translation
"The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

It seems that you are once again talking pants and incapable of rational objective thought. Interesting that you singled this verse out but ignored the others. Biased much?

In verse 22, wisdom says: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.” More than just wisdom must be involved here, for that quality never was “produced.” It never began to exist because Jehovah has always existed and he has always been wise. (Psalm 90:2) God’s Son, however, was “the firstborn of all creation.” He was produced, or created; he was the earliest of all of Jehovah’s achievements. (Colossians 1:15) The Son existed before the earth and the heavens, as described in Proverbs. And as the Word, God’s own Spokesman, he was the perfect expression of Jehovah’s wisdom.—John 1:1.

Originally posted by chaney3
Hi Suzianne. No problem with the 'butting in'. However, you didn't really answer my question. I was almost ready to give up on this forum, because mostly what I am finding is that NOBODY can agree on anything!!!! If God gave us a book, that we call the Bible, so that we may get to know Him and understand Him......then He did NOT give us such a good book! ...[text shortened]... uly is....then we would not have a thread titled 'Did Jesus Exist'. These are ALL valid points.

Hi Chaney3,

However, you didn't really answer my question. I was almost ready to give up on this forum, because mostly what I am finding is that NOBODY can agree on anything!!!!

Giving up on the forum might help. But you should get into your Bible.

Instead of "getting" light look to enter into a whole realm of light.

If God gave us a book, that we call the Bible, so that we may get to know Him and understand Him......then He did NOT give us such a good book!!!

I never thought to give up in this kind of despair, expecting everyone in the world would agree.

It is enough that on the major matters there is substantial agreement among those who have come to God.

Is there any OTHER realm of human life that you have decided to discard entirely because you don't see EVERYONE in 100% agreement ?

People do not agree on what profession is the best to make a good living. Did you say "Forget the whole matter of having a profession!" because you noticed that different opinions existed ?

Why should you throw up your hands because there are differences in theological understandings? It isn't too reasonable.

Otherwise, all humans would be on the same page, and believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit......and NO disputes would exist.

I am sure the 12 discples of Jesus had different opinions about things. But the love and enjoyment of Christ eventually tempered them and blended them together.

I have experienced the same. Oneness among Christian brothers can exist. We need to get into the enjoyment of God and remain there in that realm.

Originally posted by Suzianne
It just means you are way knowledgeable about your Bible. Made as it is from the dogma of man, this is not especially impressive.

No I am more knowledgeable about your Bible as well.

Originally posted by sonship
Hi Chaney3,

However, you didn't really answer my question. I was almost ready to give up on this forum, because mostly what I am finding is that NOBODY can agree on anything!!!!

Giving up on the forum might help. But you should get into your Bible.

Instead of "getting" light look to enter into a whole realm of light.

[quot ...[text shortened]... an brothers can exist. We need to get into the enjoyment of God and remain there in that realm.

Oneness can exist among Christian brothers.....that is merely for those brothers who believe the same thing.

I am finding that when I ask a question on this forum.....NOT one person seems to give a direct answer. Everybody replies with even further 'parables'.

Just once......will somebody ADMIT that the Trinity is a doctrine that a human being 'could' have difficulty with??

And....sonship.....the concern for knowing WHO God is, or WHO Jesus is....and where do we go when we die......is the most important topic on our planet. To merely compare it to a 'job'......as to what else to discard because not everybody agrees....it quite an immature comparison.

So....I will put it plainly sonship.....WHY do YOU feel that YOU hold the 'truth' from the Bible??? Why do people disagree with you??? Are you an 'interpreting genius' and everyone else is just plain stupid???

The reason that I said that I was willing to give up on this forum, is because it is quite clear that this debate will go on forever. God gave us a Bible, and made it impossible for 3 people to read it and come to the same conclusion about anything in it. If Jesus is God.....then why doesn't everyone on this forum believe that??

If God wanted us to know Him.....the Bible would be crystal clear to everyone what God wants us to know.....INSTEAD, it is ALL up for individual interpretation. Not a very good book at all.

Edit: I don't want to remove this post.......just apologize for the frustrated and angry tone that is has. I will leave my original words.

Originally posted by chaney3
Hi Suzianne. No problem with the 'butting in'. However, you didn't really answer my question. I was almost ready to give up on this forum, because mostly what I am finding is that NOBODY can agree on anything!!!! If God gave us a book, that we call the Bible, so that we may get to know Him and understand Him......then He did NOT give us such a good book! ...[text shortened]... uly is....then we would not have a thread titled 'Did Jesus Exist'. These are ALL valid points.

Those without love for God in their hearts will often do whatever it takes to separate us from God. This is why if you do not understand the Bible, or even just parts of it, then perhaps you need to seek a higher source, and I don't mean people in this forum. Some here love God and for others, their love of God has grown cold, if it ever existed. If you belong to a church, seek time with your church leader(s) to answer your questions, and always, always ask God for wisdom to see his truth.

If you truly seek God, and I believe that you do, then seek him where he will be found. Many here have insured that that place will not be here. True, there are pearls of wisdom to be found here, but you must always be seeking where he can be found, and not where he can not.

My personal belief is that setting your sights on God (the Father) may be too high for men. The eternal problem of our sin debt gets in our way. But allowances have been made and our bridge to God the Father is through his Son, Christ Jesus. He is the one you should seek. Yes, he is the Son of God (divine), but he is also the Son of Man (human). He came to bridge the gap between God the Father and sinful man. There is no other way to the Father except through the Son. Accept him, and commit yourself to him, and love him, and he will bring the Holy Spirit, and with it, the wisdom to understand the truth will follow. Don't worry if you don't quite understand concepts like the Trinity at first. This is one reason the Holy Spirit fills us, so that our understanding may be fortified and renewed. Don't get too distracted by side issues like the Trinity or other dogmatic issues, especially at first. Concentrate on your love for God and your willingness to let him lead you to where you need to go.

Every man is different, and so, every man's understanding of God (and therefore his relationship with God) will be different. But the beginning is always to be found in the name of Jesus Christ. This is the unifying bond between all Christians. He is the First and the Last.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No I am more knowledgeable about your Bible as well.

You may know the words, but you do not understand.

Matthew 13:17 leaps to mind here.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Those without love for God in their hearts will often do whatever it takes to separate us from God. This is why if you do not understand the Bible, or even just parts of it, then perhaps you need to seek a higher source, and I don't mean people in this forum. Some here love God and for others, their love of God has grown cold, if it ever existed. If you ...[text shortened]... Jesus Christ. This is the unifying bond between all Christians. He is the First and the Last.

Wow. Thank you Suzianne. I appreciate the time and effort you took with your response.

I have admittedly been posting with a frustrated and angry tone, and reading your reply has at least calmed that. I will take the time and reflect on what you wrote.

Edit: Personal request. A game of chess??? For my 'redemption'.