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Originally posted by sonshipCorrection:
Now we will examine the time very much following the judgment described in [b]Matthew 7:21,23.
Some Christians workers have been dismissed.
Jesus has said "I never knew you" meaning He never approved of their methods or acknowledge them.
He doesn't deny that they did these things in His name. He calls them lawless works. "Depart from ...[text shortened]... ide is also Christ's fighting army to accompany Him in His descent to take over the earth. Amen.
I had left out the T.
The plural RIGHTEOUSNESSES [sic] of the saints is not a gramatical error. It is sometimes translated "righteous deeds". The wedding garment of the Bride is the righteousnesses of the saints. This is not the positional righteous standing of those justified by faith. Rather this is the righteous living in righteous deeds, ie. "the righteousnesses" which qualify the overcoming believers to participate in this special celebration.
The judgment seat of Christ takes place before the marriage dinner of the Lamb.
All who call on the Lord and believe in their heart in His resurrection are saved.
Many who were saved yet served God lawlessly will "suffer loss" and not be rewarded. They will actually be disciplined.
Those rewarded for doing the will of the Father are rewarded with the marriage dinner of the Lamb as His bride. She has made "HERSELF" ready.
The qualifying garment for the feast is the righteous DEEDS or the righteousnessES of the saints.
Latter in that same chapter this Bride accompanies Jesus to the battle of Armageddon. This is all reward. This is not the common portion of salvation to all those who believe.
This is the portion of those "who overcome". Those defeated undergo some discipline during the millennial kingdom time.
By the time of the end of the millennium ALL saved are perfected.
And all partake of the common portion to everyone saved.
This understanding hinges on realizing that in Matthew 7:21,23 Christ's rejection for some to depart from Him is temporary there and not eternal punishment.
09 Jun 15
Originally posted by FMF"In your opinion."
My observation is that your "crap repetitive arguments" simply do not withstand sustained, point blank, on-topic questions, and you've allowed this to turn you into little more than a fist swinging purveyor of ad hominems for too many of your posts.
I'll take that for what it's worth.
Zero.
They're usually *your* crap, repetitive arguments, not mine. You go on at length for dozens of pages with Robbie, and I'm sure you both think you're "contributing".
09 Jun 15
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOh, so all the times you fall back on the standard JW whine that something is "not in the Bible" don't mean anything? You and your "church" can imply from context and no one else can? One might think that IF you're going to be doing any "public speaking" at all, that you might have need of pants.
I have not said that the term is there, you are simply therefore creating a straw man argument, what I have actually said is that is implied from the context which makes it clear that Timothy was to encourage and exhort the brothers and sisters in the congregation by example, teaching and public reading of Gods word. Why this should be difficult for ...[text shortened]... ider just how he was meant to do this by privately (as opposed to publically) reading the Bible.
10 Jun 15
Originally posted by SuzianneIt is hypocritical of the JWs to claim a word, like the Trinity, is not in the Bible and yet the watchtower use there own words that apply to their Watchtower organization that are not in the Bible. They don't want to admit that "the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" implies the Trinity. They don't even like the word "Godhead" because of what it implies.
Oh, so all the times you fall back on the standard JW whine that something is "not in the Bible" don't mean anything? You and your "church" can imply from context and no one else can? One might think that IF you're going to be doing any "public speaking" at all, that you might have need of pants.
10 Jun 15
1 edit
Originally posted by SuzianneI'm sorry I don't understand a word of your text. What are you trying to say? It appears that you are making some reference to my denomination when none has been mentioned in any of my texts, I suspect that it's simply an easy target for you to hang both your ignorance and prejudices upon.
Oh, so all the times you fall back on the standard JW whine that something is "not in the Bible" don't mean anything? You and your "church" can imply from context and no one else can? One might think that IF you're going to be doing any "public speaking" at all, that you might have need of pants.
10 Jun 15
Originally posted by RJHindsWe don't believe the trinity not only because Christ never mentions it, neither does Paul or nay of the apostles, we don't believe it because its not supported by scripture. Jehovah's witnesses are not the only ones who could not find it in the Bible either, prominent scientist and theologian Isaac Newton made a diligent search for it and pronounced that it was simply not there, in fact he devoted more time to it than he did his scientific research and still found it to be nonsense.
It is hypocritical of the JWs to claim a word, like the Trinity, is not in the Bible and yet the watchtower use there own words that apply to their Watchtower organization that are not in the Bible. They don't want to admit that "the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" implies the Trinity. They don't even like the word "Godhead" because of what it implies.
10 Jun 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIn fairness though Robbie, you are rather an easy target.
I suspect that it's simply an easy target for you to hang both your ignorance and prejudices upon.[/b]
(Yeah i know, you now go to the gym 7 times an hour and have less fat on you than a Barbie doll).
Cupcake?
10 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipThis understanding hinges on realizing that in Matthew 7:21,23 Christ's rejection for some to depart from Him is temporary there and not eternal punishment.
Correction:
I had left out the [b]T.
[quote] The plural RIGHTEOUSNESSES [sic] of the saints is not a gramatical error. It is sometimes translated "righteous deeds". The wedding garment of the Bride is the righteousnesses of the saints. This is not the positional righteous standing of those justified by faith. Rather this is the righteo ...[text shortened]... b] Christ's rejection for some to depart from Him is temporary there and not eternal punishment.[/b]
Do you mean this is a warning and not a rejection? I've never seen this passage as meaning Christ saying 'No, that's not right. Now go back and try it again.'
I've always understood this as Christ saying if you play around with this like it's some kind of toy, then don't expect me to honor what you've done. For me it is a warning to not take his words lightly or use his message for self promotion, because if I do then I'm setting myself up for rejection.
From my own experience I've seen how some people will appear to honor and support someone else, but only do so for their own benefit. In other words, using someone else as a stepping stone to advance themselves. So for me that passage is a warning to keep it real, or I could find myself being rejected even though I made surface attempts at honoring him. It goes back to what he said about doing our 'righteous' deeds to be seen by men. If that's what we're doing then we already have our reward... to be seen by men.
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10 Jun 15
2 edits
Originally posted by lemon lime
Do you mean this is a warning and not a rejection? I've never seen this passage as meaning Christ saying 'No, that's not right. Now go back and try it again.'
The discipline will have a different flavor from the church age. Rather than "go back and try it again" in the age of grace, it is the age of the kingdom. The age of grace is over and the dispensational punishment and learning will have a different "taste" to it.
I've always understood this as Christ saying if you play around with this like it's some kind of toy, then don't expect me to honor what you've done.
Your understanding is correct.
Notice that Paul says some saved believers will suffer loss and be saved yet so as through fire.
"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved yet, so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)
The phrase "will be saved, yet so as through fire" indicates discipline of some kind. It is open ended enough so that different degrees of punishment and education are conceivable.
Does "yet so as through fire" mean a minute's worth of discipline.
Does it mean an hour's worth?
Does it mean a week's or a month's or six month's worth of discipline?
We do not know. But it should not exceed the length of the millennial kingdom which is 1,000 years. "[S]aved, yet so as through fire" therefore includes a wide spectrum of things that could be used by God to punish and educate the one saved.
Therefore "he shall be saved, yet so as through fire" and "Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness" are indications of an open ended dispensational discipline short of eternity and not longer than one thousand years.
For me it is a warning to not take his words lightly or use his message for self promotion, because if I do then I'm setting myself up for rejection.
The essence of the warning you have grasped not even knowing the details. You have touched the spirit of the warning. Walk in that light.
I am just now, hopefully, adding a little more explanation about it.
From my own experience I've seen how some people will appear to honor and support someone else, but only do so for their own benefit.
Only what is genuine can past the test of the Lord Jesus's examination. The works of each Christian will be tested by a fiery examination by Christ.
Imagine standing before the One who lives within you.
Paul says -
"The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is." (1 Cor. 3:13)
Now you might be able to understand such a passage is this -
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." (Matt. 5:7)
He was speaking to His disciples. That is those for whom the matter of eternal salvation has been settled in the affirmative.
"Do not judge, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you." (Matt. 7:1,2)
Again, He is speaking to His followers for whom the matter of eternal redemption has been settled in the affirmative because of their faith.
He is talking about the judgment seat of Christ for believers, as is Matthew 7:21-23.
In other words, using someone else as a stepping stone to advance themselves.
Our work is the building of the temple of God. Paul indicates varied VALUE in the building materials.
"For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
But if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble, the work of each will become manifest ..."
If you are able to receive it -
Gold signifies the divine nature of the Father.
Silver signifies the redemption of Christ.
Precious stones the transforming work of the Holy Spirit.
These materials can stand the fire of Christ's examimation because they are works wrought out of the very Triune God's work upon the believer.
The other substances can be found in great abundance. But they are of such a poor quality that they not only cannot build the house of God but cannot not pass through the fire of Christ's examination.
The wood, grass and stubble stand for the things of natural man, the things of the fallen Adamic flesh, and the things of the untransformed man who does not work according to the will of the Father.
Included in these are politics of flattery and self promotion and other purely natural methods not wrought out of the experience of the Triune God.
So for me that passage is a warning to keep it real,
It is. And only Christ is real.
So we have to abide in Him and learn by practice and maturing to be real in Christ. This is a life long matter of learning to the Christian.
or I could find myself being rejected even though I made surface attempts at honoring him.
We all, without exception, make mistakes. The principle of the kingdom people is to be strict towards self but accomodating toward others.
Toward myself I be strict before the Lord.
Toward others I be merciful (Matthew. 7:1,2) .
The teaching should not discourage us. It should encourage us to abide in the Lord seeking Him to move out into all the areas of our soul as we serve Him.
It goes back to what he said about doing our 'righteous' deeds to be seen by men. If that's what we're doing then we already have our reward... to be seen by men.
Exactly so. Wood, grass and stubble can take on many different forms. Generally, they are not as precious to God as what comes out of the Triune God's divine nature of the Father imparted to us, the Son's work of redemption over us, and the Holy Spirit's transformation work.
This is the Father's will for certain, that God wrought into the Christian His life and nature so that she or he lives Christ. Or put another way, Christ lives on the earth again, but this time one with the one into whom He has come.
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by sonshipI know there will be a significant change during the thousand year period (yet to come) but it won't be heaven on earth in the sense that perfection has been reached. It's a period of time when lifespans become longer, and almost appears to be a reversal of life spans becoming shorter after the Garden of Eden. But there's no indication that this thousand year period of time completely reverts back to a Garden of Eden type of environment until after the final battle.Do you mean this is a warning and not a rejection? I've never seen this passage as meaning Christ saying 'No, that's not right. Now go back and try it again.'
The discipline will have a different flavor from the church age. Rather than "go back and try it again" in the age of grace, it is the age of the kingdom. The age of grace is over ...[text shortened]... ther way, Christ lives on the earth again, but this time one with the one into whom He has come.
It seems odd that Satan would be imprisoned and Jesus returns to restore order in the world, only to have Satan released to stir up trouble again. But I think this is the most logical final scene to be played out, because it will illustrate how easily man can be deceived and tempted into following an evil leader. No one will be able to say Jesus doesn't exist and has no special power, because he will be there for everyone to see... in other words, there will be no excuse for anyone to defy God other than wanting to defy him. Satan will try one last time and God will for the last time indulge him by allowing it. After that it's sayonara and goodbye forever Mr. Satan... he goes away and never comes back.
I'm sure you are aware of what foreshadowing is, past events foreshadowing what is to come. Another way of looking at foreshadowing is to see how it resembles fractals in that larger patterns are composed of smaller versions of the same pattern. To me the same story seems to always be playing out on an increasingly larger and larger scale. God tests Adam and Even by allowing Satan to deceive them, and tests Job by allowing Satan to attack him, and tests Abraham to see if he is willing to do what God has already decided to do with his own son. There are so many tests but they are basically the same test, and what occurs at the end of the last thousand years appears to be the final test.
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by lemon limeExcellent post. I've heard it said that there will be a partial lifting of the curse during the millennium, that the entire region of the Middle East will blossom with vegetation.
I know there will be a significant change during the thousand year period (yet to come) but it won't be heaven on earth in the sense that perfection has been reached. It's a period of time when lifespans become longer, and almost appears to be a reversal of life spans becoming shorter after the Garden of Eden. But there's no indication that this thousand ...[text shortened]... e same test, and what occurs at the end of the last thousand years appears to be the final test.
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by josephwThat make sense. But the part of this that fascinates me the most is how life spans will begin increasing. And near the end of this period of time I doubt there be anyone alive who was alive when the millennium started. This means everyone who is alive near the end of the millennium won't notice anything particularly unusual about the world they live in.
Excellent post. I've heard it said that there will be a partial lifting of the curse during the millennium, that the entire region of the Middle East will blossom with vegetation.
I'm sure there will be stories about our time... about how people rarely reached the age of 100, and when they did they were very old. The way things are for us now might even seem unbelievable to someone who has never experienced what we experience on a day to day basis. So Satan being released and deceiving a portion of mankind (again) doesn't seem so far fetched. If he's able to deceive people today who have trouble believing reports of the distant past, then it shouldn't be too difficult for him to deceive people in our distant future.
11 Jun 15
Originally posted by lemon limeWhat you say makes sense too. I think the reason for longevity during the millennium will be due largely to better health as a result of the proliferation of the knowledge of God.
That make sense. But the part of this that fascinates me the most is how life spans will [b]begin increasing. And near the end of this period of time I doubt there be anyone alive who was alive when the millennium started. This means everyone who is alive near the end of the millennium won't notice anything particularly unusual about the world they li ...[text shortened]... istant past, then it shouldn't be too difficult for him to deceive people in our distant future.[/b]
Every aspect of life as we know it today will be effected by the very presence of Jesus Christ in the world for a thousand years. Peace will reign. Can't wait to see it! 🙂
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11 Jun 15
What one has to understand is that the main contributing factor is the maturing of all the sons of God.
It is the maturity of the sons of God in being conformed to the image of Christ that is the drive shaft driving the whole environmental system.
This may be non-intuitive. But it is the partial recovery of creation because it is yet a partial transformation of all the children of God. When the full number have gone through the process of transformation then the creation itself will be fully freed.
Romans 8:17-24 would explain why the creation is restored partially during the millennium. Some of God's children still, by that time, need to grow in the divine life to maturity and building up.