Originally posted by @thinkofone
Jesus did NOT use them to mean to believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation" or what have you.
Jesus links believing in Him with His redemptive work of death on His cross.
"And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you.
For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. " (Matt. 26:26,28)
"Many" will be forgiven and redeemed.
"All" will not because all will not believe.
But "many" will.
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Jesus did NOT use them to mean to believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation" or what have you.
Jesus closely associates believing into Him with being redeemed by His being lifted up on the cross.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
That everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16)
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Originally posted by @sonshipJesus links believing in Him with His redemptive work of death on His cross.Jesus did NOT use them to mean to believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation" or what have you.
Jesus links believing in Him with His redemptive work of death on His cross.
[quote] [b] "And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you.
For this is My blood of the covenant, ...[text shortened]... orgiven and redeemed.
"All" will not because all will not believe.
But [b]"many" will.[/b]
Not that you have any clue as to what Jesus is saying there, your attempts to work "believe" into it are ludicrous. He doesn't say anything about belief period - no less anything about believing in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation".
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After His victorious resurrection, Jesus left instructions to His disciples including preaching redemption, repentance, and forgiveness for sins in His name.
"And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.
Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures.
And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day.
And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:44-48)
Originally posted by @mister-moggySure, he went to being the #1 enemy of Christians as he persecuted them relentlessly to being the #1 advocate and evangelizer of the movement.
i don't think paul heard or saw jesus on the road to damascus.
i think he had an epileptic fit. an epileptic fit can cause both temporary blindness and hearing voices.
paul saw a bright light, went blind for three days and heard voices. anything else added to the story i believe is exageration.
Perfectly understandable and explained away.
Thanks for that.
Originally posted by @whodeyYou might find "Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity" by James Valliant, C.W. Fahy. It's a very scholarly book crammed with scriptural references. Even if you don't agree with it, it is absolutely fascinating and very painstakingly argued. If you PM me ~ assuming you are curious ~ I could send you part of the audiobook version. It's an academic book, not a tabloid shocker.
Sure, he went to being the #1 enemy of Christians as he persecuted them relentlessly to being the #1 advocate and evangelizer of the movement.
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Originally posted by @fmfI prefer God's witness on the creation of Christianity, the Bible written by over 40 different
You might find "Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity" by James Valliant, C.W. Fahy. It's a very scholarly book crammed with scriptural references. Even if you don't agree with it, it is absolutely fascinating and very painstakingly argued. If you PM me ~ assuming you are curious ~ I could send you part of the audiobook version. It's an academic book, not a tabloid shocker.
people, in three languages, across around 1500 years. 66 different books, good read if you
accept all books, chapters and verses.
Originally posted by @kellyjayIt is your prerogative to run away from knowledge and perspectives that might challenge you.
I prefer God's witness on the creation of Christianity, the Bible written by over 40 different
people, in three languages, across around 1500 years. 66 different books, good read if you
accept all books, chapters and verses.
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Originally posted by @sonship[/b]Those are not instructions. As usual your grasp of the English language and your understanding of the doctrine of Christ is lacking. Here in Matthew the INSTRUCTIONS are listed:
After His victorious resurrection, Jesus left instructions to His disciples including preaching redemption, repentance, and forgiveness for sins in His name.
[b] "And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must ...[text shortened]... beginning from Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:44-48)
And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying,
All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
Go ye therefore and
make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you:
and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. (Matthew 28:18-20 ASV)
Go ye therefore is the precursor to a series of instructions
The instructions are to baptise, make disciples, teach people to observe His commandments
Your doctrine as usual is just plain church nonsense.
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Originally posted by @rajk999Wait a minute.
Those are not instructions. As usual your grasp of the English language and your understanding of the doctrine of Christ is lacking. Here in Matthew the INSTRUCTIONS are listed:
[i]And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying,
All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
[b]Go ye therefore and
make disciples of all the n ...[text shortened]... people to observe His commandments[/b]
Your doctrine as usual is just plain church nonsense.[/b]
Are you saying that when Jesus instructed the disciples as to what they were to teach, he did NOT instruct them to teach them believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation"? That instead they were to teach them to obey all things that He commanded?
How can that possibly be? How can Jesus have possibly forgotten to tell them the most important part?
This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Note to jaywill: Did you see my response to you earlier on this page?
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Originally posted by @rajk999
Those are not instructions. As usual your grasp of the English language and your understanding of the doctrine of Christ is lacking. Here in Matthew the INSTRUCTIONS are listed:
I wouldn't send my worst enemy to you to get an understanding of the New Testament. I can't think of anybody I dislike that much.
Anyone who wanted to know what is in the New Testament, you'd be the WORST person to advise them to ask.
Instructions:
"And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
YOU ARE MY WITNESSES. " (Luke 24:47,48)
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ToO,
And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying,
All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
That is another place - Matthew 28.
Go ye therefore and
make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you:
and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. (Matthew 28:18-20 ASV)
You're making a good point. Jesus is instructing them there to immerse believers into the one NAME of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
One name for one Person - God.
The Name Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
He did not say into the [plural] names.
And another angle people being plunged into the one name of Father - Son - Holy Spirit is reflected in Luke
"Thus is is written, that Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day." (Luke 24:46)
But you of course do not believe that Christ rose up on the third day. You're hoping that no one else will consider that important enough to pay attention to.
But without the resurrection the Gospel collapses into meaninglessness. Which is basically what you appear to WANT for yourself anyway. - that the Gospel of Christ have no meaning (or take on your horribly watered down manipulation of unbelief).
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ToO, still at it.
Go ye therefore is the precursor to a series of instructions
Go therefore is an instruction itself.
And there is NOTHING in Matthew 28 contradicting the instructions in Luke 24,
The instructions are to baptise, make disciples, teach people to observe His commandments
This is a superficial understanding.
To be immersed into the NAME really means to be plunged into the PERSON of the NAME. That is to be immersed into the reality of the Triune God.
No, sorry. Jesus here did not mean simply a formula and a verbal pronouncement. He meant to put people INTO GOD.
Of course only God can really place people into Himself.
But the preaching apostles and disciples work with the Holy Spirit to immerse people into the three-one God.
The immersion into baptismal water is just a sign of the reality that is suppose to be taking place.
Of course once IN God the words of Jesus and His teachings are to be adhered to.
Sorry, put away your "Baptize them into water. Doesn't matter if they are forgiven, redeemed, believers, realize Christ has been crucified and raised for them or not.
Just get them wet and tell them to go out and be good people."
That's your crap perversion of the New Testament.
No one needs it.
Your doctrine as usual is just plain church nonsense.
My quotation from Luke 24 is self explaining.
"Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures.
And He said to them, Thus it is written that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day.
And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:45-48)
Your mind has not been opened to understand yet.
You better ask God to open your mind.
You need His mercy.
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This was thought to be a reply to ThinkOfOne and was intended for him.
I wouldn't send my worst enemy to you to get an understanding of the New Testament. I can't think of anybody I dislike that much.
Anyone who wanted to know what is in the New Testament, you'd be the WORST person to advise them to ask.
It was mistakenly said to Rajk999.
Sorry Rajk999.
I wouldn't readily send to him either though. But maybe I would before I sent anyone to ThinkOfOne for a Bible study.
I said "maybe".