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Originally posted by @thinkofoneToO,
Wait a minute.
Are you saying that when Jesus instructed the disciples as to what they were to teach, he did NOT instruct them to teach them believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation"? That instead they were to teach them to obey all things that He commanded?
How can that possibly be? How can Jesus have possibly forgotten to tell them the most important part?
This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
That was a good point.
Sigh ... sometimes it seems like there is a glimmer of hope.
Note to jaywill: Did you see my response to you earlier on this page?
I don't know at this point.
I suspect it is more of the same.
Have you EVER gone to God and asked for his M-E-R-C-Y ?
Have you ever thought of going to God and praying from Him to have MERCY on you because of your even possibly DECEIVED smart mind ?
You should before you leave this earth.
Let me put it this way - do you think it is possible that you could be deceived by a more intelligent evil deceiver about the gospel of Christ ?
I admit that I could be deceived. I don't trust myself 100% at all. But the Gospel for me has been tested, tried and proved reliable.
I think I'm on the right track. I didn't change myself.
Originally posted by @thinkofoneOf course there was no such instruction.
Wait a minute.
Are you saying that when Jesus instructed the disciples as to what they were to teach, he did NOT instruct them to teach them believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation"? That instead they were to teach them to obey all things that He commanded?
How can that possibly be? How can Jesus have possibly forgotten to tell ...[text shortened]... e any sense whatsoever.
Note to jaywill: Did you see my response to you earlier on this page?
Jesus did not forget.
It is not an important matter to know these things.
It is critical to follow the commandments
[i]The instructions are to baptise, make disciples, teach people to observe His commandments [/quote]Superficial is when your understanding is limited to lip service to Christ and you are only able to regurgitate the obvious stated pieces of knowledge related to Christ. This kind of understanding leads to damnation like those who just professed to Know Jesus and called him Lord Lord.
This is a superficial understanding.
To be immersed into the NAME really means to be plunged into the PERSON of the NAME. That is to be immersed into the reality of the Triune God.
[/b]
In-depth comes when one is able to actually DO WHAT JESUS SAID. This understanding leads to your house standing on the rock of Christ
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (Matthew 7:15-27 KJV)
You have built your house on sands of the church, instead of the rock that is Christ. You are on that road to damnation and you are encouraging others to join you.
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Originally posted by @sonshipThat was a good point.
ToO,
[quote] Wait a minute.
Are you saying that when Jesus instructed the disciples as to what they were to teach, he did NOT instruct them to teach them believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation"? That instead they were to teach them to obey all things that He commanded?
How can that possibly be? How can Jesus have possibly for ...[text shortened]... tested, tried and proved reliable.
I think I'm on the right track. I didn't change myself.
Sigh ... sometimes it seems like there is a glimmer of hope.
Evidently you missed the point. The point was that Jesus did NOT instruct them to teach them believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation". However Jesus did instruct them to teach them to OBEY all things that He commanded. And not merely "try" to obey. The point was that belief in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation" has no place in the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
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Originally posted by @rajk999Think the penny will ever drop for jaywill?
Of course there was no such instruction.
Jesus did not forget.
It is not an important matter to know these things.
It is critical to follow the commandments
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Originally posted by @fmfI've already done research on the matter. From what I've learned, Constantine adopted the new fledgling religion as his own only to conquer with it. He was not even a Christian, although it was rumored that he converted on his death bed. Soon afterwards, the Catholic church that was subsequently created was credited with all sorts of evils, like the Inquisitions and Crusades, etc.
You might find "Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity" by James Valliant, C.W. Fahy. It's a very scholarly book crammed with scriptural references. Even if you don't agree with it, it is absolutely fascinating and very painstakingly argued. If you PM me ~ assuming you are curious ~ I could send you part of the audiobook version. It's an academic book, not a tabloid shocker.
Books like the book of Enoch was kept out of the Biblical Cannon, presumably because Enoch was so harsh on world rules in general. On several occasions he held most world rulers up with contempt due to their war like nature and corruption, virtually condemning them all to hell.
As a side note to Dive, I'm sure that this hell was not a torturous never ending punishment. Happy thoughts.
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Originally posted by @thinkofone
[b]That was a good point.
Sigh ... sometimes it seems like there is a glimmer of hope.
Evidently you missed the point. The point was that Jesus did NOT instruct them to teach them believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation". However Jesus did instruct them to teach them to OBEY all things that He commanded. And not merely "try" t ...[text shortened]... rk on the cross for salvation" has no place in the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.[/b]
Evidently you missed the point.
Maybe I did miss your intended point.
The point was that Jesus did NOT instruct them to teach them believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation".
That point of yours is beyond asinine.
However Jesus did instruct them to teach them to OBEY all things that He commanded.
FALSE ... dichotomy.
And not merely "try" to obey. The point was that belief in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation" has no place in the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
" ... Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."
This would of course include His death and resurrection for man's redemption. Ie. keeping the Lord's Supper and His Table in remembrance of His incarnation and breaking of His body and spilling of His blood that sinners may be forgiven.
You're changing it from "all that I have commanded you" to "all that ThinkOfOne likes among the sayings of Jesus."
Fortunately He is with the disciples always until the consummation of the age.
"And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20b)
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Did anyone ever answer my inquiry about Paul keeping his stupendous other experience to himself for fourteen years ?
Paul sounds like a very sober minded person who was not excessively given to sensational experiences to brag about.
Yes. three times in Acts he does recount his conversion on the road to Damascus.
But he kept close to the vest for 14 years other even more powerfully supernatural experiences. See Second Corinthians.
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Originally posted by @sonship[/b]You've really lost it jaywill. Nothing that you've posted here makes rational sense.Evidently you missed the point.
Maybe I did miss your intended point.
The point was that Jesus did NOT instruct them to teach them believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation".
That point of yours is beyond asinine.
However Jesus did instruct them to teach them to OBEY all things that H ...[text shortened]... old, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20b)
Are there no rational Christians on this forum?
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Originally posted by @sonshipThe great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, writing in The Journals:
Did anyone ever answer my inquiry about Paul keeping his stupendous other experience to himself for fourteen years ?
Paul sounds like a very sober minded person who was not excessively given to sensational experiences to brag about.
Yes. three times in [b]Acts he does recount his conversion on the road to Damascus.
But he kept close to the vest for 14 years other even more powerfully supernatural experiences. See Second Corinthians.[/b]
"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"
Originally posted by @sonship[/b]Jesus is with his disciples.Evidently you missed the point.
Maybe I did miss your intended point.
The point was that Jesus did NOT instruct them to teach them believe in the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation".
That point of yours is beyond asinine.
However Jesus did instruct them to teach them to OBEY all things that H ...[text shortened]... old, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20b)
The disciples are those who follow his commandments.
Jesus is not with people do not follow his commandments and who just call him Lord.
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Originally posted by @thinkofone
The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, writing in The Journals:
"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner ...[text shortened]... turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"[/b]
The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, writing in The Journals:
"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple.
He may seem "great" until one begins to study the New Testament for himself.
If he were here on this Forum I would not hesitate to examine some of his errors to his "great" face personally,
You;re about to get a demonstration. Of course Soren Kierkegaard is not HERE to reply for himself.
Are you going to stand in for Soren Kierkegaard?
But then through Paul came a basic alteration.
So far we have Jesus talked about imitating Him whatever happened to Him. And Paul messed everything up by emphasizing the death of Jesus.
Well lets see.
Paul -
"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, RATHER, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Rom. 8:34)
1.) Yes, Paul does indeed mention Christ's death. But He follows that with a "RATHER" ... and speaks to Christ's being ALIVE.
Here he draws special attention to the fact that Christ did not REMAIN dead ... Soren, you "great theologian" you.
" It is Christ Jesus who died and, RATHER, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."
2.) Paul says He died here but He was RAISED to life for our justification.
" .. believe on Him who has raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Who was delivered for our offenses and was raised for our justification." (Rom 4:24b,25)
Sure, Christ's death is mentioned. But the final thought of triumph is that He was raised for our justification. That means Paul stresses His LIFE - His life in resurrection.
3.) Let us go on with the basic Pauline book of Christian doctrine - Romans
as Christ was RAISED to indestructible life we who believe into Him may also walk newness of life.
" We have been buried with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life." (Rom. 6:4)
Soren! Paul mentions death but follows with a LIVING Jesus Christ through whom we may walk in newness of life.
What happened to "Paul only wants to talk about Jesus dying" ?
4.)
" Knowing that Christ having been raised from the dead DIES NO MORE ... death lords it over Him no more." (Rom. 6:9)
Soren Kierkegaard is really great theology, as long as you leave your New Testament closed and collecting dust on the shelf.
Death lords it over Jesus Christ NO MORE.
Is Paul emphasizing His death here over His living ?
5.) Soren tells us ...
Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ
Oh Soren Kierkegaard! Did you read this passage from Paul ?
" Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:1)
6.) Paul talks too much about Christ's death? Well Paul says without His being raised and LIVING the Gospel is in vain totally.
"And if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation iss vain, your faith is vain also." (1 Cor. 15:14)
Maybe Soren's beef was against Roman Catholicism more so than the epistles of Paul.
7.) Soren goes on -
and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul.
That's not true at all.
Had Paul NOT come along and we followed more Jerusalem under the leadership of James, there would not be as clear a Gospel to differentiate from Judaism.
That's why probably God had Paul write 13 some of the books of the New Testament as opposed to the 1 that James wrote.
Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"
Nonsense. You and Soren are mad with the apostle Paul because he took away YOUR Christianity of Soren and ThinkOfOne.
Actually your complaints are misdirected towards Paul. The One you both are really unhappy with is Jesus Christ.
That's enough for this post.
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Originally posted by @sonshipBe it Kierkegaard, me, rajk, scripture or what have you - when reading the written word it's clear that you have no idea of what's actually being said. You just make it say whatever fits what you have in your head. It's truly remarkable - in a really disturbing way.The great theologian Soren Kierkegaard, writing in The Journals:
"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple.
He may seem "great" until one begins to study the New Testament for himself.
If he were here on this Forum I would not hesitate ...[text shortened]... aul. The One you both are really unhappy with is Jesus Christ.
That's enough for this post.
Do you also do that when people speak to you?
Originally posted by @robert-mathesonPresumably you're responding to the OP, but it'd be helpful if you clicked on the "Reply & Quote" button within the post to which you are responding. If you do that, the system displays an "Originally posted by" box at the top of your response.
If this was as you say a "fit" then why did Paul change after this encounter? After this encounter Paul stopped killing believers in Jesus and started preaching in the name of Jesus. Does this change in behaviour happen to others who experience a "fit"??