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Originally posted by DasaI am curious: which Russian war are you talking about from which "nearly a million Russian fighters did not return"?
In the war the Russian women prayed that God would send their husbands back safely.
When nearly a million Russian fighters did not return many of these women became atheist.
Originally posted by FMFGreat point. There was only one war that the Soviets fought in which they had any huge number of soldiers, WWII, but I don't think they had 1M soldiers fielded even then, much less 1M that died. As I recall, the Soviets were very late in the game.
I am curious: which Russian war are you talking about from which "nearly a million Russian fighters did not return"?
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Originally posted by CLL53i think its the opposite, i reckon they had waaaaay more than 'just under one million' as dasa put it (if he's talking about ww2). could be the napoleonic wars?
Great point. There was only one war that the Soviets fought in which they had any huge number of soldiers, WWII, but I don't think they had 1M soldiers fielded even then, much less 1M that died. As I recall, the Soviets were very late in the game.
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nope, wiki says around 300,000 for the napoleonic war. the mystery war remains a mystery!!
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Originally posted by CLL53"As I recall, the Soviets were very late in the game"
Great point. There was only one war that the Soviets fought in which they had any huge number of soldiers, WWII, but I don't think they had 1M soldiers fielded even then, much less 1M that died. As I recall, the Soviets were very late in the game.
I think you are confusing Soviet Russia with the USA.
"estimate of Soviet military deaths is 8.7 million that lost their lives either in combat or in Axis captivity.[108] Soviet civilian deaths remain under contention, though roughly 20 million is a frequently cited figure"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#Outcome
As for DASA, He should try to figure out what bad things He did in His previous life to warrant being surrounded by all these false religions in this one.
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Originally posted by galveston75This is one of those areas where theists and atheists often land up staring at each other
http://www.kptv.com/story/19838032/gresham-woman-missing-police-consider-it-suspicious
My son knows this family and is obviously upset and my daughter and her family lives within two miles of their apartment.
Thanks....
across a void of mutual incomprehension.
First off, While I agree with wolfgang59 that we should probably care about every person
suffering or in need equally. The simple fact is that that would be overwhelming and barring
a huge change in the way our minds work this is probably too much to hope for.
We will likely always care more about some people and have their suffering hit home harder
than others.
This is not to say that we don't care about other peoples suffering without knowing them
personally, but that the suffering and predicaments of those we know will almost always
hit harder.
The suffering of millions of people during the holocaust or during the Rwandan famine are so
vast as to be almost incomprehensible.
So yes if you believed in prayer you probably aught to pray for everyone equally, but it's totally
understandable that you don't.
That said....
From an atheist/skeptical/scientific perspective prayer looks like (and is) sitting on your butt and
not actually doing something whilst thinking that you are in fact helping.
Even if a god or gods do exist, the evidence strongly suggests that prayers just don't work.
Barring those small subset of occasions where stuff 'just works out' which may be unlikely in isolation
is to be expected in the grand scheme of things (winning the lottery is unlikely but someone still
tends to win most weeks) situations are usually resolved by people actually doing something to
resolve them.
In this case, if it turns out that the missing women is found and returned to her family safe and well,
it will almost certainly be because people (police/rescue services/ect) went out and looked for her.
It will be because of people doing things.
It will not be because people sat around hoping and wishing that she would be found.
Sitting here in a far off country thousands of miles away, my 'praying' for this family will achieve
jack s*** other than perhaps make me feel better or like I had done something to help.
(well it might if I believed in such things)
Which is a dangerous illusion because it might stop me from actually doing something that might help.
I hope that this turns out ok, and you and all those others who are effected have my sympathies and
condolences.
But I am never going to mistake hoping things turn out for the best with actually doing something to
ensure that they do, and praying to god's I don't think exist in the hope that against all the odds and
evidence that they might just fix it for me would simply be hypocritical on my part.
I understand sympathise and empathise with their plight, and the plight of everyone else in trouble/need.
But simply wishing that things will get better and turn out for the best isn't going to help any of them.
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Originally posted by CLL53Wow... and I thought my knowledge of history was bad.
Great point. There was only one war that the Soviets fought in which they had any huge number of soldiers, WWII, but I don't think they had 1M soldiers fielded even then, much less 1M that died. As I recall, the Soviets were very late in the game.
The soviets were in the war (WW2) pretty much from the start.
And they switched sides (got invaded by Germany) in 1941 but they had been in the war well
before that.
And Russia's/Soviet Unions tactics have pretty much always been to simply throw huge numbers
of troops (usually poorly armed and equipped peasants) at the enemy and crush them with sheer
numbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#USSR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union
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Originally posted by googlefudgenicely put. what i find disturbing about praying in situation like this is the thought of praying for her safe return implies that god will decide somebodies fate based on the quality or quantity of prayers.
This is one of those areas where theists and atheists often land up staring at each other
across a void of mutual incomprehension.
First off, While I agree with wolfgang59 that we should probably care about every person
suffering or in need equally. The simple fact is that that would be overwhelming and barring
a huge change in the way our minds ...[text shortened]... hat things will get better and turn out for the best isn't going to help any of them.
and welcome back mr.fudge.
Originally posted by googlefudge"the evidence strongly suggests that prayers just don't work"
This is one of those areas where theists and atheists often land up staring at each other
across a void of mutual incomprehension.
First off, While I agree with wolfgang59 that we should probably care about every person
suffering or in need equally. The simple fact is that that would be overwhelming and barring
a huge change in the way our minds ...[text shortened]... hat things will get better and turn out for the best isn't going to help any of them.
What evidence is that?
Make sure you have the proof as I do have proof that it does.
Originally posted by googlefudgeYou're probably exactly spot on with this statement.
Sitting here in a far off country thousands of miles away, my 'praying' for this family will achieve
jack s*** other than perhaps make me feel better or like I had done something to help.
(well it might if I believed in such things)
If I was God, I wouldn't listen to you either.
Which is a dangerous illusion because it might stop me from actually doing something that might help.Right. Like that would actually happen. You can do nothing all you like. Blaming prayer for your inaction is pretty lame.
Originally posted by SuzianneThanks Suzianne. It's really supprised and upset me to get the responce from these guys like this. We are all humans and would never in our worst dreams want anyone to go thru this as this family is right now. It would kill me if this happened to my children and even though I personally don't know this family, it's keeping me up at night with distress. I feel so sorry for what they are all going thru.
To crap all over someone else's honest appeal for a little human compassion is what's in poor taste. Very poor taste.
About 10 million Russian soldiers died in world war 2........and another 10 million civilians.
Are persons in this forum so bent on finding fault where there is no fault........ that they will say just about anything regardless on how foolish they will become.
The number of soldiers in my post are not important and to make issue of the number is trolling.
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Originally posted by SuzianneI am doing nothing because this is happening thousands of miles away and I have
You're probably exactly spot on with this statement.
If I was God, I wouldn't listen to you either.Which is a dangerous illusion because it might stop me from actually doing something that might help.Right. Like that would actually happen. You can do nothing all you like. Blaming prayer for your inaction is pretty lame.
precisely no experience in search and rescue or criminal investigations.
If I were (able) to fly over to the states, and join in the search, I would almost
certainly get in the way of those who do know what they are doing and cause more
harm than good.
However where people do need help that I can actually give I am more than willing to
help and have done so numerous times.
I DON'T blame prayer for my inaction because I DON'T pray and because when I can help
I am not inactive.
There are however people who do pray, and think that this means that they have now
done something. (plus also anyone taking time out to pray is taking time away from actually
helping). There are plenty of people who used to be theists who can tell you about times that
they, or people they knew, would pray for something to get fixed and think that that had
meant that they had done something about it.
Whether everyone is like that is irrelevant to the point that it does happen.
I wholly agree that praying for something and then not doing anything about it is lame.
That was my point...