Originally posted by kastyou behaved like a small child i treated you like a small child. this is the post of a sentient being, even mature so i respond in kind.
"Btw, learn to read you dyslexic pathetic little child, i am zahlanzi, get it right. now if you don't mind i would like to discuss with atheists or theists that have reached at least puberty. Run along now and let the grown-ups talk."
well. First, I am an adult. Possibly older than you. Maybe not, but that's irrelevant. The point is, I'm not a child. I ...[text shortened]... your name to zahlanzi...I'm not dyslexic.
good day!
1) god gave us free will and reason and the power to shape our own destiny. are children being raped by god? by angels? by satan? no, they are raped by humans. as such it is humanity's fault. we, by our free will choose to do evil. should have god stopped WWII? maybe you say he should have but then what good is our free will when god bails us out from every mess we make. what meaning does our life have if no hardship can ever come to us because a loving god CANNOT help but intervene?
it is good and well to claim that if a person gives you a gift, he should give you 10 more else he is an evil bastard. i for one claim it is bad parenting to give the child what he wants when he wants, without the child having to work for it.
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or c) doesn't want and need to intervene because we can and should solve these problems for ourselves, problems we caused.
stop blaming god for humanity's faults. even if we hold the adam story true, which i don't, god gave us free will and we took the knowledge of good and evil by our own free will. therefore we are free to do what we want, in full knowledge of the moral correctness of the action. therefore whatever humanity does it is humanity's fault or merit. god's only merit is that of the parent of the scientist that discovers the cure for cancer.
intelligent design is a pathetic attempt to score research funds for a unprovable theory, with no practical application. it is like me asking for money to see if there aren't little dwarves poking with spears in our heart whenever we do bad things.
i tried to read the god delusion. it is a good book until he starts with the bias. dawkins is not the most objective fellow even if he claims his atheist religion is the best and has opened his eyes to the light. i will probably try to read it someday, as i will definitely watch religulous and expelled. i tried to read the bible. it is a good book if you remove the scientifically proven nonsense, the horror stories, the genocide, and the freaky laws.
i don't recommend any books. and i don't preach. god can only be reached on one's own. not through brain washing. the object is not to put a towel on ones head and call himself a muslim or wear a yarmulke and be a jew. god is not about holding ramadhan or praying once a day. god is about hope. hope we will not croak for good. hope we are not alone. hope the universe is not a random bubble in the void. for me god doesn't clouds the mind, he lifts the spirit. we all need some spirituality in our lives, whether it be allah or the flying spaghetti monster.
of course when you try and apply your spirituality to real world situations as in betting your economies on a horse or denying your child blood transfusion because blood is sacred, is when you stop being spiritual and become a moron.
For the most part, you seem to have what I believe to be a fair view of religion as far as it simply being a way to help some people live a better life or feel better about the possibility of an after life. However, this doesn't make the afterlife any more true.
As for Adam and Eve's story, that story started out with them living in quite a nice world with everything they needed. I fail to see how your argument that god can't provide a "fair" good world where he gives us everything we'd need to be happy makes sense. The reason for why it doesn't make sense that god can't simply do this is because he allegedly did do just that. Adam and eve ate the apple. Not me. Not anyone else. Would it make sense to punish a child for something their father did? Of course not. My problem with religion is that it lends a lot of cruelty to a supposed supreme being and allows that supreme being to run around with hardcore actions. In reality however, the same people that condone god's actions (or inaction) do NOT allow for people to take the same kinds of actions or inactions. We don't say it's "fair" for a kid to be beaten since it's just humanity taking its course. We try to find those kids that are being beaten and take them out of that home. Of course, that usually leads to a difficult life for the kid anyway, but if god could only intervene and help them at that point, it would only seem fair.
I obviously have no faith in god whatsoever. I'm a happy person (despite what you may have thought originally based on my previous post). I'm a good person. I cannot imagine having the power to at least give people equal footing in this world and not doing it. I cannot imagine intervening in someone's life because they prayed but not in countless other lives. People can say that it's up to humanity and it's all in our hands what we do with our lives and how we help society. That's true, Zahlanzi...it's true because we're all we have to rely on. There is not god, that's my position, to help us with anything. You're right about humanity and the responsibility resting on our shoulders. But this is not because god wants to teach us a valuable lesson...it's because there is no god watching, caring, and hoping for us. to make the right choices. Even if there was, given the short amount of time we're on earth and the very limited resources and potentially damning environments we might be born into, I see no way god, a supreme being with higher intelligence, could possibly sentence us to an eternal damnation.
Does that make sense? What are your thoughts or anyone else's on the existence of eternal damnation? Given what we know about both nature and nurture and they amazing power of both in leading one's life and decisions of the future, can we honestly say that damning someone for all ETERNITY makes any sense? Eternity is an awfully long time considering we have an infinitely small fraction of time in which to "get it right".
Originally posted by kastthere is no absolute truth. even science can sometimes be proven inaccurate. fundamental laws are bent in the case of black laws. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle states that god plays dice and you cannot predict a future state of the universe. so if not even science can be accurate, why are you so certain god doesn't exist?
For the most part, you seem to have what I believe to be a fair view of religion as far as it simply being a way to help some people live a better life or feel better about the possibility of an after life. However, this doesn't make the afterlife any more true.
As for Adam and Eve's story, that story started out with them living in quite a nice world with ...[text shortened]... e an infinitely small fraction of time in which to "get it right".
i get your position from a scientific point of view. of course we cannot perform an action that is dependent on a divine intervention. we cannot design a plane that works on God power when the kerosene runs out. science deals with certainties and if a theory is not proven correct, it cannot be used.
is god needed for the universe to work? no. as a believer i find this a testament to god's awesomeness. if one already accepts god to be real, one should be thankful that the universe's continual existence doesn't depend on god, that if god somehow doesn't tweak every particle in it, suns go supernova.
from a spiritual point of view i find the idea of god comforting. i don't have to reflect on the emptiness and futility of our short lives because the show doesn't end in death. if i am incorrect and god doesn't exist i will not care much. if used correctly, religion is like a chocolate bar that doesn't make you fat. pleasure with no pain.
the idea of the spectator god has been debated before. i had a discussion of twhite about it. how can a benevolent god sit by and watch so much horror in the world?
i proposed the idea that this is our show, that it is in our power to change the world for the better and if god intervened and eradicated the evil, the mess we created in the first place, it will diminish our merit. no longer sentient beings created in the image of god, we would become like parasites, dependent on God. we would have all the answers, we would have no problems any more, and we would spent all day playing monopoly or whatever. if you don't get to do anything, how good is your life?
(spoiler alert) have you seen wall-e? it is basically the same. escaping from a dying world in a nice shiny ship, the humans grew fat and weak and lazy. having robots dress them, feed them, carry them, they became useless and bored. eventually, they abandoned their comfortable lives on board of that ship and came to live in the harsh world that became earth, working hard to bring it back to life.
Originally posted by Zahlanzi"the idea of the spectator god has been debated before. i had a discussion of twhite about it. how can a benevolent god sit by and watch so much horror in the world? "
the idea of the spectator god has been debated before. i had a discussion of twhite about it. how can a benevolent god sit by and watch so much horror in the world?
i proposed the idea that this is our show, that it is in our power to change the world for the better and if god intervened and eradicated the evil, the mess we created in the first place, it ...[text shortened]... p and came to live in the harsh world that became earth, working hard to bring it back to life.
I believe because to do otherwise results in the end of evil on the
spot, and evil has not shown itself fully for what it really is yet.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJaygod is omniscient, he could figure it out.
"the idea of the spectator god has been debated before. i had a discussion of twhite about it. how can a benevolent god sit by and watch so much horror in the world? "
I believe because to do otherwise results in the end of evil on the
spot, and evil has not shown itself fully for what it really is yet.
Kelly
i believe that evil will always exist as a possible among a multitude of choices. eradicating evil means taking away the possibility of choosing evil.
which means the death of free will. something which god may find unacceptable.
Originally posted by KellyJayAre you saying that evil might turn out to be a good thing? Or am I misunderstanding why the end of evil is not such a good idea?
I believe because to do otherwise results in the end of evil on the
spot, and evil has not shown itself fully for what it really is yet.
Kelly
Originally posted by ZahlanziYet if you analyze the story properly you will realize that the analogy does not in fact work. If living on the ship was really so much better, they would have stayed on it. They realized that their lives were not comfortable as they were fat, weak and lazy.
(spoiler alert) have you seen wall-e? it is basically the same. escaping from a dying world in a nice shiny ship, the humans grew fat and weak and lazy. having robots dress them, feed them, carry them, they became useless and bored. eventually, they abandoned their comfortable lives on board of that ship and came to live in the harsh world that became earth, working hard to bring it back to life.
Any such argument doesn't even begin to address the child mortality issue. The argument does not even begin to explain why it is better for a child to come into this world and die of malaria in its first week, than to enter a boring, sin-free, pain-free world and live a month or more. Most early death and suffering does not benefit us, nor would anyone choose it gladly, not even characters in Wall-E
Originally posted by twhiteheadEarly death only has only one benefit, reducing population growth. The world as it stands cannot sustain the population growth as it is now, we are already using up about half the available planetary resources so unless we get a whole other planet to exploit, there won't be much left for humans on this one, which points to a disaster waiting in the wings like a dinosaur at a village picnic. I think what will happen will make the death of a baby look like flu, with billions of people dying. What would the spectator god do about that? I suspect nothing, like this hypothetical god would say : you dug your own grave, you dig your way out of it, don't look to me for help.
Yet if you analyze the story properly you will realize that the analogy does not in fact work. If living on the ship was really so much better, they would have stayed on it. They realized that their lives were not comfortable as they were fat, weak and lazy.
Any such argument doesn't even begin to address the child mortality issue. The argument does not ...[text shortened]... suffering does not benefit us, nor would anyone choose it gladly, not even characters in Wall-E
Just like this hypothetical god "helped" the dinosaurs 65 million years ago.
Originally posted by bill718And you know this how?
Why don't you relax and have a cup of tea, your starting to foam at the mouth! No matter how out of control things look to us mortals, God really is in control of everything, so set up your chess board and work on your endgames or something.
🙂
Originally posted by ZahlanziThat makes absolutely no sense. If we can eliminate evil from the world, like the evil of christianity, or islam, the world would simply be a safer place to raise your kids, no zealots bombing abortion centers, burning crosses in the name of god, forced conversions, religious wars, all that real evil would be gone and we would still be going to school, running the financial world, inventing new therapies, going into space, and all the millions of things intelligent humans do. Eliminating evil would mean the end of the ambitions of a Pol Pot or Idi Amin, or the gangs of thugs running rampant in Africa, mulitple rapes of women with the specific goal of making her undesirable because she is of a different religion and tribe.
god is omniscient, he could figure it out.
i believe that evil will always exist as a possible among a multitude of choices. eradicating evil means taking away the possibility of choosing evil.
which means the death of free will. something which god may find unacceptable.
It would eliminate the thuggery going on in our schools where teachers are afraid to come to class and teach, where students get attacked every day. That is a tiny fraction of what would be gone if evil were to be eliminated on earth. A god could arrange it so a human thinks he invented an anti-evil ray gun or something, free will would not even have to be breached for such a thing. Freeing kids from fear of their peers, freeing women around the world from the violence of rape, these are things of evil and the world would not go lazy and fat and everyone dying of boredom in such a society, it would be a society where fear can be really reduced to a minimum and by fear I mean REAL fear, the sure knowledge that if you go out that door a gang of thugs is waiting for you. "All" it would take would be an anti attack medallion or something like that you carry with you and if someone shoots at you the bullet goes exactly on a 180 degree course back to its origin, hopefully blowing up the rifle or pistol and the hand firing the trigger. A self defense system for all, no dictator can force you to do anything, no would be rapist would be able to maim another girl, etc. I think that would go a long way to eliminate evil and the world would be a lot better for it.
Originally posted by ZahlanziYep, but you cannot nor anything else in creation.
god is omniscient, he could figure it out.
i believe that evil will always exist as a possible among a multitude of choices. eradicating evil means taking away the possibility of choosing evil.
which means the death of free will. something which god may find unacceptable.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhiteheadI'm saying that why are things thought of as evil and not good?
Are you saying that evil might turn out to be a good thing? Or am I misunderstanding why the end of evil is not such a good idea?
If you have God just saying so, why would that be good enough,
but to let it all play out so judments are clear and evil is stripped of
all arguments on judgment day, that ends it forever not just for a
season where it could and would appears again, and again.
Kelly
While I understand your viewpoint, zahlanzi, that it is sometimes more comforting for some to believe that the end of this life is not in fact the end of life, I have to ask - does that make god any more real?
In my opinion, the people who say that they believe in god because they don't want this to be it are CHOOSING to believe in god for their benefit but not necessarily really believing. Does that make sense?
ok...so what I'm trying to say is that when people admit that they believe in god because it makes them feel better about the short time we have here (thinking we have an eternity awaiting us elsewhere), this does not in fact help the case for god. We could very well agree that many many MANY people "need" god for them to live a fruitful, healthy life. Sometimes people "need" it to stop doing drugs or to stay faithful to their wives (believe it or not, I've heard people state that if they stopped believing in god like me, that they would up and cheat on their wives immediately). However, the satisfying of a personal psychological need for a god does not in any way help the case for god existing. It just means that some people feel more comfortable with that then what they know can also be very true - that god does not exist.
I know you're not saying that because you believe in god, god exists. I know that. But I think it's interesting that you're almost playing into that whole "pascal's wager" thing where it's better to bet on god existing since if he doesn't exist, you're safe - and if he does exist, you're still safe for believing. That's perfectly fine, of course. And one can live their life as one sees fit. However, just because a child believes in his/her imaginary friend, just because it's a cute story to believe in santa clause, and yada yada yada - you get my drift ... it doesn't make them any more real.
As for you kelly, I have to ask something about your last post. You stated something about judgment day, a very interesting idea in itself. Why are we waiting for judgment day? I'm seriously asking. Why would a god have us wait for judgment day? It cannot possibly be that he wants to give us time to figure out that his love is this and that or that we need to believe in him (her?). If that was the case, the end of times would never come since someone is always being born and, thus, should also be allotted a given period of time in which to make the right "choice" about his/her faith. See what I mean? The end would never come if he's simply giving us time...cause no time would be enough since people are constantly being born. (of course, this does not at all address all those poor unfortunate kids that die at very early ages regardless of it not being the "end of time" for the rest of us.)
So then, why would god wait for this judgment day? Why not just do it now? Or what not simply do away with the whole judgment thing and allow everyone back into eden where we all get our own chance to live it up or eat from the tree. I personally don't know what I would choose - I rather like our crazy little world. But seriously, why not just go back now?
Too many questions, I'm sorry...but one more. Why did god make the ten commandments AFTER people had already lived and died? why not just make them from the start and then see who broke them?
Originally posted by kastI think it safe to say you cannot get a rational answer to your questions because you either believe or you don't. Those who don't believe go to hell according to their religion, in other words, if you are not for us you are our enemy and will be severely punished for not going along with the program. So good luck getting rationality from an irrational proposition.
While I understand your viewpoint, zahlanzi, that it is sometimes more comforting for some to believe that the end of this life is not in fact the end of life, I have to ask - does that make god any more real?
In my opinion, the people who say that they believe in god because they don't want this to be it are CHOOSING to believe in god for their benefit but ...[text shortened]... why not just make them from the start and then see who broke them?