Originally posted by sonshipI never said this : If so then how could you teach that we outgrow the need to live in faith ?. Neither have I said to 'discard' faith.
You fully appreciate what Paul wrote there ?
If so then how could you teach that we outgrow the need to live in faith ?
Did you notice the second to the last verse in the book, [b]Romans 16:26 refers to "the obedience of faith" ?
What is "the obedience of faith" if the Christian no longer needs faith after regeneration ?
...[text shortened]... .
And you say the Christians should graduate from faith, discarding it for higher matters ?[/b]
Rather than play wih words you would do well to appreciate and understand the essence of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, and after understanding, incorporate them into your doctrine.
I will provide no references becuase you already know what the Bibe says.
- Faith without works is dead.
- If you have faith and you have not charity you are nothing.
- The greatest of faith, hope and charity is charity.
- Love God and your neighbor as yourself, is the road to eternal life.
Peter says it very nicely - that you start off with faith. But you cannot end there. You MUST ADD to that faith:
- virtue
- knowledge
- temperance
- godliness
- brotherly kindness
- charity.
You start off with FAITH the least important of all virtues and graduate to CHARITY the greatest of all virtues. Faith is JUST A START.
These are the words of Jesus and the Apostles.
The Bible continues to speak of faith and belief as a starting point. Its a good beginning to have Faith in Christ. Faith is NOT THE END, FAITH IS NOTHING WITHOUT PROOF OF THAT FAITH BY GOOD WORKS AND OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST. But you rather ignore that. Why you choose to ignore it is probably because you want an easy route, you want to do nothing, give nothing, help nobody.
Christ condemned the do-nothing people here:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For
- I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
- I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
- I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not:
- sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (Mat 25:41-43)
Be warned. Faith alone is dead and the road the damnation.
The OBEDIENCE OF FAITH is another phrase that supports what i am saying. Faith alone can be evil and disobedient and unworthy of Christ because Faith alone IS NOTHING as the Bible says a dozen times. Faith SHOULD produce obedience to Christ and lead to righteousness. If it does then that Faith is good and worthy.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Rom 6:17-18)
16 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I am surprised you choose that scripture since the person Jesus was talking too had this
I am thankful that there are people like you to help me get eternal life. All these years I was mistakenly following what Jesus Christ preached :
.. Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him .. if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no m ...[text shortened]... s thyself. (Mat 19:16-19)
Stupid me for following Jesus Christ... what was I thinking !!
said to him in the very same chapter, Jesus told him what you just quoted was not
enough. (Mat 19: 20-22) So what you were thinking is not good enough.
20 The young man said to him, “I have kept all these; what do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this word, he went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
16 Sep 15
You should start taking all scripture in context:
Romans 2: 12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
If you sinned you will be perish apart from the law, and if you did so under the law will be
judged by the law, none of us will stand before God justified by the law, it clearly shows
our guilt, we need the grace of God.
16 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999No one I have seen here suggests that faith without works is anything other than dead.
I never said this : [b]If so then how could you teach that we outgrow the need to live in faith ?. Neither have I said to 'discard' faith.
Rather than play wih words you would do well to appreciate and understand the essence of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, and after understanding, incorporate them into your doctrine.
I will provide ...[text shortened]... d you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Rom 6:17-18)[/i][/b]
It is grace through faith which is a gift of God that saves us, and we do the works of God,
we put our faith in Jesus, we believe in the One the Father sent, we become born again,
we receive the Spirit of God.
16 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayDoes this happens to all Christians
No one I have seen here suggests that faith without works is anything other than dead.
It is grace through faith which is a gift of God that saves us, and we do the works of God,
we put our faith in Jesus, we believe in the One the Father sent, we become born again,
we receive the Spirit of God.
- we do the works of God,
- we become born again,
we receive the Spirit of God
If Yes can you justify it with some references.
The implication is that all Christians do the works of God. I can provide references which show that not all that profess to be Christian do the works of God.
Obviously not all who profess their faith in Christ will get into Gods Kingdom.
Do you need references?
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes, but I doubt you'll take them seriously since you never take any scripture seriously
Does this happens to all Christians
- we do the works of God,
- we become born again,
we receive the Spirit of God
If Yes can you justify it with some references.
The implication is that all Christians do the works of God. I can provide references which show that not all that profess to be Christian do the works of God.
Obviously not all who profess their faith in Christ will get into Gods Kingdom.
Do you need references?
that does not come from you.
We do the works of God:
John 6:27-29New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
2 Corinthians 6:1-3New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
6 As we work together with him, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain. 2 For he says,
“At an acceptable time I have listened to you,
and on a day of salvation I have helped you.”
See, now is the acceptable time; see, now is the day of salvation! 3 We are putting no obstacle in anyone’s way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry,
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
Jesus said we must be born again, surprised you have to ask about this since Jesus said
it MUST happen. For someone who follows Jesus, something Jesus said must happen I'd
thought would have high on our list. Please note, we must be born from above this is not
something that we can do on ourselves. We have to come to God and believe, you cannot
even see the Kingdom of God without faith, without belief, let alone follow God.
John 3New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
3 Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2 He came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be astonished that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?
11 “Very truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know and testify to what we have seen; yet you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
With respect to the Spirit of God, if you do not have the Spirit of God you don't belong to
God! Again, someone who studies scripture how is it that you have to ask about this?
John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Romans 8:9-14
9 But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
We are made right by God through Jesus Christ to do GOD's GOOD works, I've never
denied we will be doing go works, you keep suggesting as much. The thing I'm saying
that our righteousness in Christ is not our efforts, our effort is just to obey God which is
what we should be doing, but no work we can do makes us righteous before God, only
Jesus did does that.
I've also do not have an issue with that there are many who claim to be Christ are not
Christ's, I've pointed out to you that there are going to many who are relying on their
works will be kicked out because they do not know the Lord. If you want to establish
your righteousness by works alone, you may, but I doubt you'll like where it takes you in
the end.
16 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayThe question was : Does this happen to all Christians You [or your references] did not answer that question. This is the reason why I ignore your references .. they tend to be off the point.
Yes, but I doubt you'll take them seriously since you never take any scripture seriously
that does not come from you.
We do the works of God:
John 6:27-29New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Fath ...[text shortened]... r righteousness by works alone, you may, but I doubt you'll like where it takes you in
the end.
The truth is that not everyone who profess faith in Christ do good works. Some do and some do not. That is the fact of the matter and that is what separates sheep from the goats according to Jesus - good works.
So of all the millions of Christians,
- some have the Spirit of God
- some do good works
- some are born again
SOME ... SOME .. NOT ALL.
So it is not a foregone conclusion that faith alone saves anyone. Christ was abundantly clear. It is those who do good works will enter Gods Kingdom. They can have all the faith in the world .. they will still be condemned.
16 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Seriously, you must be born again does not mean that those that are saved are all born
The question was : [b] Does this happen to all Christians You [or your references] did not answer that question. This is the reason why I ignore your references .. they tend to be off the point.
The truth is that not everyone who profess faith in Christ do good works. Some do and some do not. That is the fact of the matter and that is what ...[text shortened]... l enter Gods Kingdom. They can have all the faith in the world .. they will still be condemned.[/b]
again? That takes everyone in, no one is outside of this requirement.
If you don't believe in Jesus than you are condemned already, so only those that believe
matter! That takes everyone in, no one is outside of this requirement.
What you wrote below is not scriptural, it isn't the truth! Those that believe you that you
can be saved by doing good works and avoiding Jesus will be lead to Hell by you.
"- some have the Spirit of God
- some do good works
- some are born again
SOME ... SOME .. NOT ALL"
16 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayOk .. I will respectfully decline to continue this discussion with you.
Seriously, you must be born again does not mean that those that are saved are all born
again? That takes everyone in, no one is outside of this requirement.
If you don't believe in Jesus than you are condemned already, so only those that believe
matter! That takes everyone in, no one is outside of this requirement.
What you wrote below is not scrip ...[text shortened]... e have the Spirit of God
- some do good works
- some are born again
SOME ... SOME .. NOT ALL"
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Originally posted by Rajk999I never said this : If so then how could you teach that we outgrow the need to live in faith ?. Neither have I said to 'discard' faith.
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You practically are saying this and that have to be ADDED to faith. But you do not teach this in the same spirit as the New Testament teaches. Your version of ADDING to faith amounts to undermining faith, discarding faith, down playing faith, and even despising faith.
You use the words but your aim is to be like the Judaizers. They came to spy out our freedom in Christ that they may bring us into bondage.
You are behaving like the false brothers that Paul spoke of here:
" ... because of the false brothers, brought in secretly who stole in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they may bring us into slavery.
To whom we yielded with the subjection demanded not even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might remain with you." (Gal. 2:4,5)
You're acting like those who labored to trouble the churches in Galatia. So Peter's speaking of adding to faith is not YOUR twisting of adding to faith.
Rather than play wih words you would do well to appreciate and understand the essence of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, and after understanding, incorporate them into your doctrine.
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The book of Galatians was written to rescue the local churches in Galatia from your kind of twistings through back to justification through law keeping.
O foolish Galatians, I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith ? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Gal. 3:1-3)
This is what you teach - having begun by the Spirit the believer must go on to be perfected by the flesh in Judaistic law keeping for eternal justification.
- Faith without works is dead.
- If you have faith and you have not charity you are nothing.
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Yes James does write that faith without works is dead. But James says to his audience that they are already firstfruits of God's creatures, meaning they have been begotten by God. They do not do works of the law in order to BE begotten by the Father.
"He brought is forth by the word of truth, purposing that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." (James 1:18)
James does not say that in some time in the future when they have works God WILL bring them forth. They already HAVE been brought forth by the begetting Divine Father.
" HE .... BROUGHT .... US .... FORTH ... "
Any discussion of faith without works being dead has nothing to do with obtaining the regeneration of the begetting divine Father through works of the law.
I don't think James' teaching of faith without works being dead is your teaching about those same words.
- The greatest of faith, hope and charity is charity.
- Love God and your neighbor as yourself, is the road to eternal life.
Paul does not use the 13th chapter of his First Corinthian epistle the way you use it. Before Paul reaches chapter 13 about love being the expression of faith, he has laid a foundation that those who have called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ are His -
"To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called saints, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours." ( 1 Cor. 1:2)
The AUDIENCE of his entire epistle are "CALLED SAINTS" . Yes they are in different levels of maturity. Some he even says are infants in Christ, even unfortunately fleshly and fleshy. He says some are carnal. But they are positionally sanctified in Christ (v.2).
Not only so, but Jesus Christ is [b]"both theirs and ours" . They have called upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, been regenerated, been eternally justified, and He is both their Lord and Savior and our Lord and Savior.
Doubtless there is much work to do for the apostles to feed them, nourish them, perfect them. But they ARE throughout the sanctified saints positionally justified forever.
Your emphasis on charity being greater than faith is not really Paul's way of teaching his 13th chapter there.
Peter says it very nicely - that you start off with faith. But you cannot end there. You MUST ADD to that faith:
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Yes, the same words you use in James and in Paul and in Peter's epistles. But though the words are used your spirit and your attitude is one of one who has been "bewitched"{/b] - spying out the freedom of brothers in order to them into bondage.
I won't be subject to your way of teaching for a moment. When you learn to minister God's economy which is in faith [b](1 Timothy 1:4) then I will gladly come under your ministry. I wish I could.
- virtue
- knowledge
- temperance
- godliness
- brotherly kindness
- charity.
----------------------------------------------------
Yes the words all are biblical. But your emphasis is to undermine walking in faith and by faith. Your teaching is actually distracting from Christ. It encourages self righteousness, self reform, self improvement, and law keeping in the energy of your religious flesh.
It is not accident that James authored one book of the 27 New Testament books and Paul authored some 13. Paul's ministry was more foundational than the ministry of the elder James, leading elder of the first Christian church - the church in Jerusalem.
James has his part. James surely has his contribution. But Paul's contribution is more. There is a reason that God used Paul to more lay the structure of the New Testament than James.
I love the writings of James which I receive as the inspired words breathed out by God. But Paul's writings are more faithful to God's new covenant economy. James is more transitional revealing a leaving of the Old Testament and transitioning to the New.
This i historically understandable. He still somewhat had one foot in the old covenant.
You start off with FAITH the least important of all virtues and graduate to CHARITY the greatest of all virtues. Faith is JUST A START.
No, faith in Christ is intrinsic ALL THE WAY. There is never any graduating from faith. Peter's ADDING to faith is not your kind of replacing of faith.
These are the words of Jesus and the Apostles.
The Bible continues to speak of faith and belief as a starting point. Its a good beginning to have Faith in Christ. Faith is NOT THE END, FAITH IS NOTHING WITHOUT PROOF OF THAT FAITH BY GOOD WORKS AND OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST. But you rather ignore that. Why you choose to ignore it is probably because you want an easy route, you want to do nothing, give nothing, help nobody.
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This kind of boasting that Christians who do not fall into your kind of bewitched law keeping only want an easy route is the rote indoctrination that you got to be some kind of Anti Calvinist attack robot.
I am not here proclaiming Calvinism per se. I am not even that well versed in Calvinism per se. But I recognize an indoctrinated attack dog downplaying faith.
So an "easy route" is not my concern at all. Taking Christ as everything we need in our love, our oneness, our giving, our admonishing, and every other aspect of the Christian life is not that easy when we are so naturally confident in ourselves.
For length's sake I will continue below.
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16 Sep 15
Originally posted by sonshipI think if Rajk had his way, we would all have to be physically circumcised to be a Christian, that is... 😉
[b] I never said this : If so then how could you teach that we outgrow the need to live in faith ?. Neither have I said to 'discard' faith.
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You practically are saying this and that have to be ADDED to faith. But you do not teach this in the same spirit as the New Test ...[text shortened]... y when we are so naturally confident in ourselves.
For length's sake I will continue below.[/b]
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Christ condemned the do-nothing people here:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For
- I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
- I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
- I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not:
- sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (Mat 25:41-43)
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We can discuss that passage by itself. Here I probably would not say the same things as, let me say, KellyJay or some other brothers participating.
A full discussion of Matthew 25:31 - 46 I will not develop here. I have written on this in the past. And I stand by what I wrote in the past.
These sheep and goats of the nations did not know WHO Christ was. And there are THREE groups in the teaching not two -
1.) The sheep who are saved.
2.) The goats who are condemned.
3.) These, down to even the least of My brothers.
Jesus and these even down to the least, His brothers are in the teaching. And against them Jesus judges the actions of the saved ones and the condemned ones.
And that is all that I will say at this time.
Be warned. Faith alone is dead and the road the damnation.
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James did say faith without works is dead. He did not say faith without works leads to damnation. That is YOUR spin.
James did ask " Can his faith save him ? " But there is a SAVING which is OTHER than an eternal saving through eternal redemption.
I need to be SAVED in heavy traffic.
I need to be SAVED when tempted here and there in my daily Christian walk.
I need to be SAVED from selfishness, a natural reaction to the needs of others.
I need saving from anger, jealousy, envy, self pity, pride ... many many things in our daily Christian walk we need SAVING from.
So James' question about, CAN FAITH SAVE YOU? if there is no expression of this living One in your life, is not about damnation. It only underscores that we were not SAVED eternally just to be forgiven. We were saved to live Christ, abide in Christ, be filled with Christ, built up together in His Body, and express Christ.
The OBEDIENCE OF FAITH is another phrase that supports what i am saying. Faith alone can be evil and disobedient and unworthy of Christ because Faith alone IS NOTHING as the Bible says a dozen times.
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Where does the Bible say faith in Christ is evil ?
Faith SHOULD produce obedience to Christ and lead to righteousness. If it does then that Faith is good and worthy.
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And the very obedience to Christ is also done in faith. That is why it is called "the obedience of faith". Your way of adding to faith so that it will not be dead is being perfected in the flesh having begun by the Spirit. It is full of despising faith, and self confidently boasting in one's own power in the religious flesh to self perfection.
Paul's faith was that it was no longer he that lived but Christ who lived IN him. And the life which he lived in the flesh he lived still - in faith.
"I am crucified with Christ ..."
That requires the exercise of FAITH. That is the faith to SEE the truth of the matter. I have been crucified with Christ. Both my good doing and my bad doing have been crucified with Christ. And the disciple must not be IGNORANT of this truth but stand upon it in faith.
" Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ have been baptized into His death ? We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in orer that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4)
And you call this the easy way, the easy route. You're really foolish !
The very passage is written AFTER this admonition -
What then shall we say ? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound ? " (v.1)
Absolutely not! We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it ? (v.2)
Or are your ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death ..." (v.3)
The Christian must totally be identified with Christ, in His death and resurrection. I'd much rather someone teach me how utterly one with Christ I am and that this Christ LIVES in me. I would find this more helpful that the self confident boasting of some Judiazer insisting that we be perfected in the fleshly law keeping in order to avoid damnation.
Continue with Galatians 2:20 about Paul having been crucified with Christ.
" I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me;
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal. 2:20)
The life which he now lives .... he lives IN FAITH.
No matter HOW many attributes he adds to faith, as Peter teaches, he continues to live IN FAITH. In fact at the very end of his life and ministry he says that he has KEPT the faith.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Rom 6:17-18)
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And " ... those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in [divine zoe] life through the One, Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:17b)
The believers reign in His life through the abundance of grace not the termination of grace. In other words we reign by placing more and more faith in this grace - this enjoyment of Christ to be our everything and all that we need.
Having BEEN eternally justified, we normally should go on to reign daily in the whole sphere of HIS indwelling life.
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10)
Here eternal reconciliation has taken place in the past of the believers. They HAVE BEEN reconciled even when they were enemies. Much more they are to be SAVED daily in the realm of His indwelling divine life.
You do not teach about being saved in the sphere and realm of Christ's indwelling life. You don't teach about the abundance of grace propelling the believer to reign in life. You teach law keeping to be eternally justified. And some machismo attitude regards this as the hard way, while those of us wanting much more of His life, are wanting an easy route.
My conscience does not come under this kind of Judaistic condemnation.
I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ has died in vain." (Galatians 2:21)
I seek to enjoy the abundance of grace to reign in life rather than nullify the grace trying to return to the law keeping of the OT.
"The righteous one shall have life and live by faith." (Gal. 3:11)
That is HAVE life and continue to LIVE ... by faith. In fact the NT says we in the Spirit await the hope of this practical righteousness in our daily living.
"For we by the Spirit out of faith eagerly await the hope of righteousness." (Gal. 5:5)
Did you get that? By the Holy Spirit out of faith, we hopefully await righteousness. We hopefully cooperate with the Spirit that Christ the Righteous One, would be dispensed more and more into our soul.