if we all must agree that god created us; then if and when he decides to send me or you to hell, isn't there any sense of failure or responsibilty from god? surely this is no different to the parents who have the burden of having a naughty child. also, if he sends me to hell, does he miss me; does he send me there then just forget about me? isnt that a little harsh? where's the love in all this? also, by god creating the rules didnt he also create sin at the same time; by me saying to a child you must not do this or you will be punished i've now made it possible for the child to be naughty.
do you think maybe, just maybe.... casting your good books to one side, sin is man made? do you think maybe god is really saying "just be true to yourself and enjoy, there is no sin, there is no hell... only the sin and the hell you bring with you. whatever you do in this world you are still my child and i will love you for eternity. whatever happens to us we are still and will always be... one.... i cannot seperate myself from you any more than you can seperate yourself from me; if one doesnt make it home, no of us makes it home - i will never leave you, stop loving you, dessert you, abandon you - you are me and i am you - now go and enjoy, be happy, dont get tied down with all this sin stuff, just be yourself and live the life you were born to live - a free existence - not from sin - but free from the pressure of living a life you feel i want you to live"
of course i could be wrong, but if there is a day of justice, that will be my justification for living the life i did; if god still insist on punishing me for that, i dont think i want to join his heaven!
Originally posted by eatmybishopLet me first say this; nothing that I am about to say is in any way desiged to belittle, make fun of, or shame you, or anything like that.
if we all must agree that god created us; then if and when he decides to send me or you to hell, isn't there any sense of failure or responsibilty from god? surely this is no different to the parents who have the burden of having a naughty child. also, if he sends me to hell, does he miss me; does he send me there then just forget about me? isnt that a l ...[text shortened]... did; if god still insist on punishing me for that, i dont think i want to join his heaven!
But, I am going to try to persuade you to my way of thinking in respect to your ideas. I can do no less.
For the sake of argument let's assume that there IS a God. Then it seems only logical that we must have a definition of God. So, since the big argument here in this forum is mostly about the christian God, and since I call myself one, I'll use that definition.
But before I do I'll let you know that I am aware of the hypocrisy of some christains and the way in which they throw God around as if they were his right hand man.
I make no such claim.
But I believe in him and his word of which I am no stranger. So to answer you I will begin with your first assertion or question. And as I do I would ask you, in some small way, to trust to my knowledge of the Bible so I don't have to work so at it. this is hard enough.
This may be hard for you to believe, but God doesn't DESIDE to send someone to hell. It is a Calvinist teaching, that permeates throughout a great deal of christianity, that God had decided in eternity past who would go to heaven and who would go to hell. And a parallel teaching that God created sin.
That would mean that we are just robots without free will.
A good question one might ask is, what IS God doing then?
Do you want me to go on?
Originally posted by eatmybishoplets have killers and rapists in heaven, good idea. so they can ruin it for all of us
if we all must agree that god created us; then if and when he decides to send me or you to hell, isn't there any sense of failure or responsibilty from god? surely this is no different to the parents who have the burden of having a naughty child. also, if he sends me to hell, does he miss me; does he send me there then just forget about me? isnt that a l ...[text shortened]... did; if god still insist on punishing me for that, i dont think i want to join his heaven!
Originally posted by eatmybishopGod doesn't send people to heaven or hell, we make a personal choice on where to go.
if we all must agree that god created us; then if and when he decides to send me or you to hell, isn't there any sense of failure or responsibilty from god? surely this is no different to the parents who have the burden of having a naughty child. also, if he sends me to hell, does he miss me; does he send me there then just forget about me? isnt that a l ...[text shortened]... did; if god still insist on punishing me for that, i dont think i want to join his heaven!
I'm going to address the point you made about a parent telling it's child not to do something, and how this enables the child to disobey.-
In the garden of Eaden, Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat from a certain tree. They disobayed, were banished from the garden, and the land they lived on was cursed. This is considered a consiquence to the action they took. Now you can kind of look at Adam and Eve like children. they were not aware of their nakedness, nor of sin. if God had not set down rules, not matter how unecessary they may have seemed, then there would not be any obedience. now what kind of God, who created EVERYTHING wouldn't want, to some extent, obedience from His creaton? He gave them permitted access to every fruit except one. Now I believe that he told them NOT to eat from that one tree for HIS GLORY. Therefor, when you tell your child not to do something, does it not bring you joy when he/she obeys?
Now I will address you point about sin being man made.-
It is a Law of physics that there is ALWAYS a contridicting force. (ie. up-down, black-white, short-tall, good- evil.) So God makes something pure and holy, and it will be a natural accurance for bad/evil.
Now about God just wanting us to live our lives our own way.-
This sounds like a weak excuse to justify your past mistakes hun. It wont do. God understands that we have ALL sinned, and He is willing to forgive those sins if people, as individuals, would believe that He sent His Son to take the penalty, for those sins, for us! Once we are saved from hell, He wants us to live Godly lives for Him. He does not, however, condemn us to hell if we do not live by His word. (ie. Ephesians 1:12+13,) As it says in these verses, we are SEALED after we believe!
OK. If I missed anything, do let me know!
As always, A child of the King,
Queenofnight
Post script:
also, if you want, read Romans 6:1-16! I will quote a little. "Know ye not, that to whome ye yeild yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whome ye obey..?" like I said, Good-evil, black-white, God-devil.
Originally posted by eatmybishopYou may be much closer to the truth than you realize.
if we all must agree that god created us; then if and when he decides to send me or you to hell, isn't there any sense of failure or responsibilty from god? surely this is no different to the parents who have the burden of having a naughty child. also, if he sends me to hell, does he miss me; does he send me there then just forget about me? isnt that a l ...[text shortened]... did; if god still insist on punishing me for that, i dont think i want to join his heaven!
May be I can make a humble addition to your ideas. Can we assume that heaven is closeness to God and Hell separation from Him?
Let's say that by following God's guidance we develp our spiritual faculties. Just as an unborn child develops eyes, ears, hands, and feet, things that it does not need when it is in its mother's womb, we develop spiritual parts that we will need only when we start our spiritual life, which is when we die.
God is not punishing us. When we do not follow His guidance, we end up spiritually blind, or deaf, or crippled. That somehow prevents us from enjoying His presence. That becomes our hell. You may have a better example.
Originally posted by eatmybishopI know exactly what your talking about
if we all must agree that god created us; then if and when he decides to send me or you to hell, isn't there any sense of failure or responsibilty from god? surely this is no different to the parents who have the burden of having a naughty child. also, if he sends me to hell, does he miss me; does he send me there then just forget about me? isnt that a l ...[text shortened]... did; if god still insist on punishing me for that, i dont think i want to join his heaven!
I really think there is a GOD... and it would be crazy to not believe in GOD.
But I really think he made us with free will and that is all. Maybe he is just watching us. Who knows.
But a god that sends people to hell makes no sense to me. I dont have a name for my god, I was raised christian. Most Christians dont understand when I telll them where I am. I say I dont want to call god jesus because im just not sure about it anymore. I do believe in god though. Christians have a hard time dealing with someone like me.
I believe god is big enough to deal with soemone that isnt sure and isnt sure what he believes. Why would he send me to hell?? or you??
I just say seek god and dont give him any name right now.
Ask him to lead you to christianity if that is what he wants.
Im in the process now.... ill let yall know where this takes me.
Originally posted by QueenofnightEven murderers and paedophiles?
Like I said in response to eatmybishop, I believe salvation is eternal and permanent. However, the people who were criminals on this earth, and who excepted Christ as their Savior, will no longer be crimminals in Heaven.
A child of the King,
~Queenofnight
Originally posted by eatmybishopAnd all hell-bound share the same fate, from a mass-murder like Adolf Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer, to the average Joe who just couldn't be bothered with religion.
if we all must agree that god created us; then if and when he decides to send me or you to hell, isn't there any sense of failure or responsibilty from god? surely this is no different to the parents who have the burden of having a naughty child. also, if he sends me to hell, does he miss me; does he send me there then just forget about me? isnt that a l ...[text shortened]... did; if god still insist on punishing me for that, i dont think i want to join his heaven!
Also, the eternal thingy. Why should hell be eternal? Wouldn't 100 years of continuous torture be enough to change someone's ways? I'm sure it would. And yet, nobody is given a 2nd chance.
Then, up above in heaven, there are people in "new" bodies who are completely incapable of sinning, even in the slightest degree, blissfully unaware of the loss of their precious free will. I say "precious" because it was evidently very important that man start with free will; it is the only way to justify all the sin, sorrow, and suffering that God permitted. After all, he wouldn't have wanted to make robots. He just wants to turn them into Robots once they reach heaven.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemmaybe the bible just says eternally to scare you into not sinning, or so that when you DO go to hell and you are let out, you are extra happy rather than knowing you are getting out and seeing it coming.
And all hell-bound share the same fate, from a mass-murder like Adolf Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer, to the average Joe who just couldn't be bothered with religion.
Also, the eternal thingy. Why should hell be eternal? Wouldn't 100 years of continuous torture be enough to change someone's ways? I'm sure it would. And yet, nobody is given a 2nd chance.
...[text shortened]... e wanted to make robots. He just wants to turn them into Robots once they reach heaven.
Originally posted by MikeBruceYou are on the right path, brother. Just remember:
I really think there is a GOD... and it would be crazy to not believe in GOD.
But I really think he made us with free will and that is all. Maybe he is just watching us. Who knows.
But a god that sends people to hell makes no sense to me. I dont have a name for my god, I was raised christian. Most Christians dont understand when I telll them where I am ...[text shortened]... ity if that is what he wants.
Im in the process now.... ill let yall know where this takes me.
The true seeker hunteth naught but the object of his quest, and the lover hath no desire save union with his beloved. Nor shall the seeker reach his goal unless he sacrifice all things. That is, whatever he hath seen, and heard, and understood, all must he set at naught, that he may enter the realm of the spirit, which is the City of God. Labor is needed, if we are to seek Him; ardor is needed, if we are to drink of the honey of reunion with Him; and if we taste of this cup, we shall cast away the world.
Happy searching!