St. Silouan on Forgiveness

@bigdoggproblem said
"...and while you yet live, you must free yourself from [the evil spirit's] clutches through repentance"

Well, that's rather dramatic. And perhaps a tad condescending? ['Anyone who wrongs me damns themselves to the flames automatically.']

How about simply forgiving because I, too, am human and make mistakes?

Why?

@kellyjay said
Thank God His forgiveness depends on Him and not us!

I would have more time for a religion that mirrored this utilitarian sentiment:

'To deserve forgiveness, a person who does wrong must recognize and acknowledge the wrong they have done; must express contrition and a sincere desire not to repeat that act; and must express willingness to make restitution as far as it is possible. If any of these conditions are not met, then forgiveness is not merited.'

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I would have more time for a religion that mirrored this utilitarian sentiment:

'To deserve forgiveness, a person who does wrong must recognize and acknowledge the wrong they have done; must express contrition and a sincere desire not to repeat that act; and must express willingness to make restitution as far as it is possible. If any of these conditions are not met, then forgiveness is not merited.'

Being worthy of forgiveness is never in the offender’s eyes only the one who is forgiving, that was offended. You may think someone else should be forgiven by another wronged party, it still is not your call.

God is the offended party in all wrong doing, if He held it against us what could we do?

He loves because He loves us, search the scriptures for anyone who God said was worthy of His love!

God reaching out to us by sending His Son Jesus Christ, is us either us accepting His grace and mercy which is totally undeserving by us or not.

You think we can make ourselves worthy in anyway shape or form?

@kellyjay said
Why?

I'm going to need a little more.

@kellyjay said

You think we can make ourselves worthy in anyway shape or form?

Yes.

As stated, '...must express contrition and a sincere desire not to repeat that act; and must express willingness to make restitution as far as it is possible...'

@philokalia said
Some powerful words from St. Silouan the Athonite:

[quote]“We have such a law: If you forgive, it means that God has forgiven you; but if you do not forgive your brother, it means that your sin remains with you.”

+ St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, VII.9

“Christ prayed for those that crucified Him: ‘Father, count not this sin against them; they know not what the ...[text shortened]... forgiveness, you actually do not want forgiveness at all but just want to feed your sense of pride.

Mr X murders Mr Y's brother. Mr X shows no remorse or regret or any indication he won't murder again in the future.

St Silouan (and you I assume) would have Mr Y show unconditional forgiveness to Mr X despite his lack of contrition.

The utilitarian would only give forgiveness to those who deserve it, and so would not extend forgiveness to Mr X. As, 'to deserve forgiveness, a person who does wrong must recognize and acknowledge the wrong they have done; must express contrition and a sincere desire not to repeat that act; and must express willingness to make restitution as far as it is possible. If any of these conditions are not met, then forgiveness is not merited.'

I prefer the second approach to forgiveness.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Yes.

As stated, '...must express contrition and a sincere desire not to repeat that act; and must express willingness to make restitution as far as it is possible...'

I think repentance is the word you are looking for. The fine line between our views is we come to God knowing we are not worthy, versus waiting until we think we are and have made ourselves worthy.

@Philokalia

An interesting point on this part of your quote:

“Christ prayed for those that crucified Him: ‘Father, count not this sin against them; they know not what they do.’

Two important questions for you trinitarian hellers then:

1)Do you think the Father granted the son’s request?
1a) If not, why not?

and

2) if so ... were those prayed for granted a pardon from being burnt alive in Hell for eternity?

@bigdoggproblem said
I'm going to need a little more.

He took all of our sins, He didn’t do that so we could continue in them, so why would He just forgive all?

@kellyjay said
He took all of our sins, He didn’t do that so we could continue in them, so why would He just forgive all?

So you disagree with the OP that, 'only proper forgiveness is unconditional'?

@kellyjay said
He took all of our sins, He didn’t do that so we could continue in them, so why would He just forgive all?

But we weren't taking about Jesus. You may have misread some posts earlier.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
So you disagree with the OP that, 'only proper forgiveness is unconditional'?

It is unconditional you can’t earn it, you can not get good enough for that! That only starts the journey of sanctification, a deeper walk with Christ (God), you cannot walk with Him as a slave to sin. His goal has always been the same for us from day one, to be made in His imagine. So as a child of God He will correct us when we need it, showing us how to walk. I promise you it is not easy, but freeing among hundreds of other adjectives that come to mind.

@bigdoggproblem said
But we weren't taking about Jesus. You may have misread some posts earlier.

Forgiveness was the topic correct?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Yes.

As stated, '...must express contrition and a sincere desire not to repeat that act; and must express willingness to make restitution as far as it is possible...'

I think you do not understand that one can consistently wish to be contrite and to do better, but also repeat. Paul himself and other Saints and apostles talk about these sorts of failures, right.

This is because we both know the standard that is in the Bible -- even the fleeting thoughts of lust count as a sin, and even the thoughts of unjustified anger count as a sin.

How can anyone expect to prove themselves worthy in the eyes of God with such a high standard -- how can anyone hope to attain a sinless life?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
So you disagree with the OP that, 'only proper forgiveness is unconditional'?

Our forgiveness is unconditional because we are not in the position of God to know people's hearts nor to know the future, and we do not benefit from pretending that we can aspire to the role of judging others.

As we have stated elsewhere: God forgives all who ask for forgiveness, but those who are in a state of pride and do not ask for it are not given it.

This jives very well with the one major sin of Satan at the beginning: the sin of pride.