@ghost-of-a-duke said
Forgiveness is a beautiful thing, no disagreement there.

If I had a bag of sweets and said I was going to give one to everyone unconditionally, but in reality, was only prepared to give a sweet to people who came to me and asked for one, then my sweet giving could not be said to be unconditional. (As it was conditional upon people having to ask for one). Now, the l ...[text shortened]... a sweet and is promptly given one.

Is this fair? Would an omniscient God act in the same manner?

What most of us “Christians” forget or fail to correctly understand, is how to differentiate between: sacrifice, atonement, reconciliation, justification, sanctification, forgiveness etc.

Here’s roughly what I believe and what drives my thinking on various topics:

The sacrifice of Christ was an atonement for global sin across all time which reconciled the entire world and all to himself and provided a platform whereby all people can be justified to stand in his presence and receive the forgiveness through grace and faith and so become sanctified to do good works.

Now, the first bit means that hell and eternal suffering is done away with for EVERYONE, the middle bit means that those who hear the calling may come and the last bit is about discipleship.

That’s a rough version.


Edit: I can start a thread on this if there is interest....

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Forgiveness is a beautiful thing, no disagreement there.

If I had a bag of sweets and said I was going to give one to everyone unconditionally, but in reality, was only prepared to give a sweet to people who came to me and asked for one, then my sweet giving could not be said to be unconditional. (As it was conditional upon people having to ask for one). Now, the l ...[text shortened]... a sweet and is promptly given one.

Is this fair? Would an omniscient God act in the same manner?

Would you force your sweets upon those that didn't want one? He is not going to make anyone come to Him, He is not going to force anyone out of the sin that they love, and so on. He isn't going to force someone who hates another yield so that they are compelled by God to be in both God's presence or those they hate. Love and forgiveness has to be from the heart, it has to be real. You don't get that by saying a few words 20 years ago and living in sin as if nothing happen, neither do you get it by being filled with contempt or one's one self importance.

You are looking at this as if the little old lady was owed God's grace and the Nazi was not. Neither of them was owed God's grace, and God's grace and mercy is great enough all of us can receive it if we go to God. Not just the ones we deem worthy.

@suzianne said
This is one of the most common and horrible cop-outs of those who call themselves "Christian".

Works are very important they accomplish a lot of things; however, they are not what connects us to God, that is God's love not our efforts.

@kellyjay said
Would you force your sweets upon those that didn't want one? He is not going to make anyone come to Him, He is not going to force anyone out of the sin that they love, and so on.

What if the man with the sweets is threatening to burn those children who don't accept the sweets on their bare arms with cigarettes?

@fmf said
What if the man with the sweets is threatening to burn those children who don't accept the sweets on their bare arms with cigarettes?

If someone is drowning in water and they refuse the help of the life guard, the blame of their drowning will not be on the life guard, their choices and water will kill them. Stay in your sin, it will kill you.

@kellyjay said
If someone is drowning in water and they refuse the help of the life guard, the blame of their drowning will not be on the life guard, their choices and water will kill them. Stay in your sin, it will kill you.

Would you force your sweets upon those that didn't want one? He is not going to make anyone come to Him, He is not going to force anyone out of the sin that they love, and so on.

What if the man with the sweets is threatening to drown those children who don't accept the sweets?

@fmf said
Would you force your sweets upon those that didn't want one? He is not going to make anyone come to Him, He is not going to force anyone out of the sin that they love, and so on.

What if the man with the sweets is threatening to drown those children who don't accept the sweets?

What if's, reality is what you should be concern with.

@kellyjay said
If someone is drowning in water and they refuse the help of the life guard, the blame of their drowning will not be on the life guard, their choices and water will kill them. Stay in your sin, it will kill you.

There is no water and there is no lifeguard and I am not going to drown, so I am not going to blame anybody for any such thing. Old age is going to kill me. I will be gone.

@kellyjay said
Would you force your sweets upon those that didn't want one? He is not going to make anyone come to Him, He is not going to force anyone out of the sin that they love, and so on. He isn't going to force someone who hates another yield so that they are compelled by God to be in both God's presence or those they hate. Love and forgiveness has to be from the heart, it has to be ...[text shortened]... nd mercy is great enough all of us can receive it if we go to God. Not just the ones we deem worthy.

The little old lady 'is' owed God's grace if divine forgiveness in unconditional and if Christ died for all of our sins.

@kellyjay said
If someone is drowning in water and they refuse the help of the life guard, the blame of their drowning will not be on the life guard, their choices and water will kill them. Stay in your sin, it will kill you.

That is exactly what most drowning people do! Fight the life guard.

A good life guard accepts this and helps the drownee anyway - even against his will.

Is God any worse - or more callous - than this lifeguard?

@fmf said
There is no water and there is no lifeguard and I am not going to drown, so I am not going to blame anybody for any such thing. Old age is going to kill me. I will be gone.

I will see you on the other side, hopefully you will be with the sheep not the goats.

@caljust said
That is exactly what most drowning people do! Fight the life guard.

A good life guard accepts this and helps the drownee anyway - even against his will.

Is God any worse - or more callous - than this lifeguard?

It is difficult to grasp the evil in the world when good is called evil, and evil is called good.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The little old lady 'is' owed God's grace if divine forgiveness in unconditional and if Christ died for all of our sins.

No, she has the right to become a child of God, He is not going to force that on her against her will.

@kellyjay said
No, she has the right to become a child of God, He is not going to force that on her against her will.

But what if her will has been compromised by things out of her control? Say, for example, she had grown up in an abusive religious cult and as a consequence had no belief in God?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
But what if her will has been compromised by things out of her control? Say, for example, she had grown up in an abusive religious cult and as a consequence had no belief in God?

God will judge us by the light we have. This is why the gospel is so important!