St. Silouan on Forgiveness

@philokalia said
It isn't a good analysis because what Kelly Jay and I would say is that the important thing is that someone is willing[ and that is the true character that manifests itself from within, right?

God does not interfere with the free will of people, right.

So, it is asking people to sincerely repent... and if they refuse to repent, that is upon them.

...[text shortened]... ing their fundamental will -- a will that it is their right to?[/i]

That is the better parallel.

Can repentance ever be insincere? If it is not sincere, is it repentance?

Insincere apologies and insincere repentance mean nothing.

God is not a fool. He sees the heart of men.

This is why arguments like "Pascal's Wager" don't fly.

@suzianne said
Do you think anyone today can live a "sin-free" life?

The list of 'sins' in the Bible is so extensive that it is impossible for a human being to live a life that is free of all of them.

Jesus (if indeed omniscient) would have known this, rendering his statement 'go and sin no more' less instruction and more aspiration. (Just like when a parent tells their child, 'be good.' ).

@philokalia said
So, it is asking people to sincerely repent... and if they refuse to repent, that is upon them.

How is someone supposed to "sincerely repent" to the God you happen to believe in if they don't share your belief in Him?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The list of 'sins' in the Bible is so extensive that it is impossible for a human being to live a life that is free of all of them.

Jesus (if indeed omniscient) would have known this, rendering his statement 'go and sin no more' less instruction and more aspiration. (Just like when a parent tells their child, 'be good.' ).

One might say that the proof of the pudding is in the striving.

By falling short, we can learn to cut others some slack as well.

I'm convinced that he knew what he was saying.

@suzianne said
Can repentance ever be insincere? If it is not sincere, is it repentance?

Insincere apologies and insincere repentance mean nothing.

God is not a fool. He sees the heart of men.

This is why arguments like "Pascal's Wager" don't fly.

And this was somethign that Pascal himself acknowledged...

And also something that St. Augustine had written about centuries before.

@kellyjay said
If someone is drowning in water and they refuse the help of the life guard, the blame of their drowning will not be on the life guard, their choices and water will kill them. Stay in your sin, it will kill you.

This was your exact post. Read it again, and don't claim that I am adding to it or changing it.

Of course, technically speaking the water will kill them if they drown. BUT you mentioned a lifeguard (which I assume in your analogy to be Christ) and I responded that just like a human lifeguard, who will do everything possible to save a drowning person EVEN IF that person resists, so Christ has already shed his blood for the sins of the whole world.

And it is quite a good analogy, after all.

Hell will be empty.

@caljust said
This was your exact post. Read it again, and don't claim that I am adding to it or changing it.

Of course, technically speaking the water will kill them if they drown. BUT you mentioned a lifeguard (which I assume in your analogy to be Christ) and I responded that just like a human lifeguard, who will do everything possible to save a drowning person EVEN IF that person res ...[text shortened]... r the sins of the whole world.

And it is quite a good analogy, after all.

Hell will be empty.

I wrote the post, I know what I wrote, and I know why I wrote it.

If you turn it into something else than you are not addressing the point that was made by me. If you want to stress something you saw that makes your point that is yours it isn't mine.

If I were to talk about Christ, and Him being the topic, I would not have used that to stress that point, I would have worded it differently.

Christ did shed His blood for the sins of the whole world, I agree, and I agree that every single person has the right to become a child of God based on the blood of Jesus Christ, because that is how powerful the gift of God is.

I disagree with you that God will do everything possible to save all sinners, He will not force them to turn away from the sins they love, He will not force the breaking of the will of people to make them do what He wants. He is giving us room to make our own choices.

@caljust said
This was your exact post. Read it again, and don't claim that I am adding to it or changing it.

Of course, technically speaking the water will kill them if they drown. BUT you mentioned a lifeguard (which I assume in your analogy to be Christ) and I responded that just like a human lifeguard, who will do everything possible to save a drowning person EVEN IF that person res ...[text shortened]... r the sins of the whole world.

And it is quite a good analogy, after all.

Hell will be empty.

Well you and scripture disagree on Hell being empty of people, so that one you will have to take up with God not me.

@kellyjay saidChrist did shed His blood for the sins of the whole world, I agree, and I agree that every single person has the right to become a child of God based on the blood of Jesus Christ, because that is how powerful the gift of God is.

I disagree with you that God will do everything possible to save all sinners, He will not force them to turn away from the sins they love, He will ...[text shortened]... g of the will of people to make them do what He wants. He is giving us room to make our own choices.

A debt can be either paid or not paid - it is a binary system, no exceptions. You cannot say: “I have paid and cancelled your debt. Now you must accept the cancellation by bowing before me and being thankful.”

In the latter case, the debt has NOT been cancelled, it is a conditional contract. There is no question of having the “right” to accept or reject the cancellation.

The Bible says our debt is cancelled. Period.

@kellyjay said
I disagree with you that God will do everything possible to save all sinners, He will not force them to turn away from the sins they love, He will not force the breaking of the will of people to make them do what He wants. He is giving us room to make our own choices.

God has ALREADY done everything possible to save sinners.

You do not understand the Bible when you say that God will not “force them to turn from their sins”. Of course not! What he will do is “forget their sins”!

Do you understand anything at all about grace? If it has to be asked and begged for, or even “accepted” in some way, it is no longer grace, but works, and you can be proud of your efforts in securing it!

@caljust said
A debt can be either paid or not paid - it is a binary system, no exceptions. You cannot say: “I have paid and cancelled your debt. Now you must accept the cancellation by bowing before me and being thankful.”

In the latter case, the debt has NOT been cancelled, it is a conditional contract. There is no question of having the “right” to accept or reject the cancellation.

The Bible says our debt is cancelled. Period.

A debt can only be paid to whom it is owed. You cannot have a debt paid to Bob by giving Jane money for Jane not Bob. God who created the whole universe and all that is done in His creation for good or bad is done to God's creation. You were given a life, judgment will be when you are called to given account for what you were given. The Bible says our debts are cancelled in Jesus Christ, are you in Christ Jesus, is He your Lord and Savior, He is the Way are you walking in Him, He is the Truth and Life have you accepted Him?

@caljust said
God has ALREADY done everything possible to save sinners.

You do not understand the Bible when you say that God will not “force them to turn from their sins”. Of course not! What he will do is “forget their sins”!

Do you understand anything at all about grace? If it has to be asked and begged for, or even “accepted” in some way, it is no longer grace, but works, and you can be proud of your efforts in securing it!

He has given us the right to be, we accept it or not.

@kellyjay said
A debt can only be paid to whom it is owed. You cannot have a debt paid to Bob by giving Jane money for Jane not Bob. God who created the whole universe and all that is done in His creation for good or bad is done to God's creation.

You are playing with words and getting confused doing so.

OK, I owe a debt to, say, Bob. Bob decides, quite unilaterally, liberally and magnanomously, to cancel the debt. Result: I no longer owe anything! If I rock up at Bob’s place and offer to pay, his accountant will say: “Pay what? I can’t see any amount owing.”

Assuming I owe a debt to God, for messing up my life or his creation or whatever. He decides to have his son pay off my debt. Result: no more debt! What can be more simple?

Why confuse it with requiring that now I have to officially “accept” that the debt is cancelled. Is it or is it not?

It is.

@caljust said
A debt can be either paid or not paid - it is a binary system, no exceptions. You cannot say: “I have paid and cancelled your debt. Now you must accept the cancellation by bowing before me and being thankful.”

In the latter case, the debt has NOT been cancelled, it is a conditional contract. There is no question of having the “right” to accept or reject the cancellation.

The Bible says our debt is cancelled. Period.

The Bible says no such thing. The Bible says that Jesus died for two kinds of sins:
- the sin brought into the world by Adam [imputed sin]
- our sins that we have committed.

The first type applies to all of mankind ie Jesus paid this debt for all of mankind whether or not they know Christ.. The second type only applies if one accepts Jesus Christ with his heart. Their sins are forgiven and wiped away. Jesus did not die so that one can continue on with a life of sin.

The debt that has been canceled applies to a specific group of sins, and certainly not all.

@caljust said
You are playing with words and getting confused doing so.

OK, I owe a debt to, say, Bob. Bob decides, quite unilaterally, liberally and magnanomously, to cancel the debt. Result: I no longer owe anything! If I rock up at Bob’s place and offer to pay, his accountant will say: “Pay what? I can’t see any amount owing.”

Assuming I owe a debt to God, for messing up my life o ...[text shortened]... ng that now I have to officially “accept” that the debt is cancelled. Is it or is it not?

It is.

The old debt is cancelled.
New debt incurred has to be repaid.