St. Silouan on Forgiveness

Some powerful words from St. Silouan the Athonite:

“We have such a law: If you forgive, it means that God has forgiven you; but if you do not forgive your brother, it means that your sin remains with you.”

+ St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, VII.9

“Christ prayed for those that crucified Him: ‘Father, count not this sin against them; they know not what they do.’ Archdeacon Stephen prayed for those who stoned him so that the Lord would not judge this sin against them. And so we, if we wish to retain grace, must pray for our enemies. If you do not find pity on a sinner who will suffer in flames, then you do not carry the grace of the Holy Spirit, but rather an evil spirit; and while you yet live, you must free yourself from his clutches through repentance.”

— St. Silouan the Athonite

“Whoever will not love his enemies cannot know the Lord and the sweetness of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit teaches us to love our enemies in such way that we pity their souls as if they were our own children.”

+ St. Silouan the Athonite, Wisdom from Mount Athos: The Writings of Staretz Silouan, 1866-1938, I.11

Of course, I cannot add anything to these words.

I was glad to see them today because they go back to a concept I would like to advocate that the only proper forgiveness is unconditional and not based on satisfying your ego.

If you want someone to humble themselves for you, and that is why you grant them forgiveness, you actually do not want forgiveness at all but just want to feed your sense of pride.

@philokalia said
Some powerful words from St. Silouan the Athonite:

[quote]“We have such a law: If you forgive, it means that God has forgiven you; but if you do not forgive your brother, it means that your sin remains with you.”

+ St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, VII.9

“Christ prayed for those that crucified Him: ‘Father, count not this sin against them; they know not what the ...[text shortened]... forgiveness, you actually do not want forgiveness at all but just want to feed your sense of pride.

If a Christian doesn't seek forgiveness when they have been offensive, is their motivator also one of pride?

@philokalia said
Some powerful words from St. Silouan the Athonite:

[quote]“We have such a law: If you forgive, it means that God has forgiven you; but if you do not forgive your brother, it means that your sin remains with you.”

+ St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, VII.9

“Christ prayed for those that crucified Him: ‘Father, count not this sin against them; they know not what the ...[text shortened]... forgiveness, you actually do not want forgiveness at all but just want to feed your sense of pride.

It is the only proper way to come to God too, since if He held our sins against us none of us could stand. If we don't forgive, instead just look for ways to justify our hate, we will not in the end even need real reasons to hate people. We will be making up more and more false accusations out of the darkness of our hearts, or hold things done in the past against those in the present, that have done nothing wrong to justify this hate. It sours our souls in ways that are truly evil and wicked.

@philokalia said
Some powerful words from St. Silouan the Athonite:

[quote]“We have such a law: If you forgive, it means that God has forgiven you; but if you do not forgive your brother, it means that your sin remains with you.”

+ St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, VII.9

“Christ prayed for those that crucified Him: ‘Father, count not this sin against them; they know not what the ...[text shortened]... forgiveness, you actually do not want forgiveness at all but just want to feed your sense of pride.

Shame you didn't give this advice on forgiveness to Romans1009 after whatever slights he perceived when he arrived in February last year.

This community would have been spared the 6 month noxious torrent of the most tedious and creepy posts its ever seen, you calling him "valiant" notwithstanding. He sometimes claimed that "the indwelling Holy Spirit" was guiding his posts.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
If a Christian doesn't seek forgiveness when they have been offensive, is their motivator also one of pride?

That could be the case. Or, they could also have not intended what you think they intended, or not perceived it how you perceived it, or perhaps there are some other angle of either sin or misunderstanding at play.

But it should never matter what other people's sins are, right -- you should hope for the best for them, and you should forgive them. You should hope for their reformation.

You know, mymother preached about this all the time and always made it out that people who were coarse and rude were people that weren't as privileged.

I distinctly remember when someone flipped us off on the road my mother said something like...

"How embarrassing... Imagine being so angry that someone merged in a way you don't like that you feel the need to give them the bird."

On some level, if you think someone is guilty of something and they cannot even see it themselves that means they are blind to their own error or that you've made a mistake.

That's how I see it.

@fmf said
Shame you didn't give this advice on forgiveness to Romans1009 after whatever slights he perceived when he arrived in February last year.

This community would have been spared the 6 month noxious torrent of the most tedious and creepy posts its ever seen, you calling him "valiant" notwithstanding. He sometimes claimed that "the indwelling Holy Spirit" was guiding his posts.

I thought of it like he was being a very annoying, in your face poster trying to teach you & dive a lesson about your own posting styles. And, he did go overboard, and it was excessive, and I guess I justified it under the pretext of it being a sort of "mirroring," but certainly accusing people of pedophilia is going beyond the realm of the acceptable.

So, I guess I regret saying that. I'll even go so far as to say that I partly said he was my favorite poster with the motivation of knowing that it would anger you. And at that time, and even now to some degree, I feel upset with your posting style, and so I get thoughts like that...

And none of that is good.

But I am saying this openly because I'd love for us to move past whatever petty differences we have.

I'm not under the illusion that this will mean that we won't clash bitterly and have heated exchanges; I am not under the illusion that we will never annoy each other again...

But hey, let's move past all of these things, right? And just have some better attitudes in our posts and that would be the solution.

@kellyjay said
It is the only proper way to come to God too, since if He held our sins against us none of us could stand. If we don't forgive, instead just look for ways to justify our hate, we will not in the end even need real reasons to hate people. We will be making up more and more false accusations out of the darkness of our hearts, or hold things done in the past against those in th ...[text shortened]... done nothing wrong to justify this hate. It sours our souls in ways that are truly evil and wicked.

Completely correct.

One of the things that always moves me to want to forgive and to see how powerful it is is when I see the parents or children of murder victims forgive the murderers.

That is the sort of powerful gesture that is baffling... and when the killers themselves break down and cry -- it is really the ultimate cathartic moment you can imagine.

So I would say that... if there are people powerful enough to do those things, then I need to be ready to forgive the endless mini-trespasses that I perceive as beign against me.

@philokalia said
I thought of it like he was being a very annoying, in your face poster trying to teach you & dive a lesson about your own posting styles.

He didn't post anything like me, Ghost of a Duke (arguably Romans1009's main victim) and divegeester. What on earth are you on about?

@philokalia said
I'll even go so far as to say that I partly said he was my favorite poster with the motivation of knowing that it would anger you.

But you saying it didn't anger me. It just marked your card, that's all. You are what you post.

@philokalia said
I'm not under the illusion that this will mean that we won't clash bitterly and have heated exchanges

I have never once had a "heated exchange" with you or clashed with you "bitterly". Why would it start now?

@philokalia said
I guess I justified it under the pretext of it being a sort of "mirroring," but certainly accusing people of pedophilia is going beyond the realm of the acceptable.

It's a pity you didn't have more maturity and integrity in this matter. And it's a pity - seeing as he was a pretty feeble and cretinous "Christian" - that, instead of cheering his filthy trolling on because of some shallow animosities you felt, you didn't take him under your wing, help him to grow up, stop him making a mockery of the Christian concept of the "indwelling Holy Spirit", and give him a bit of the old 'St. Silouan the Athonite' stuff to chew on rather than empowering his creepy imposition on this community.

@Philokalia

Adam Lee writes:

'In the secular morality of universal utilitarianism, forgiveness has a place...
UU teaches that human happiness is paramount, and refraining from causing others to suffer is our highest duty. When we violate that duty, we incur responsibility – the responsibility of undoing that hurt if possible and restoring the lost happiness; and the responsibility of reforming ourselves so we don’t perform similar wrong acts in the future.

If an offender meets this burden, then forgiveness should be given, but it must be deserved. To deserve forgiveness, a person who does wrong must recognize and acknowledge the wrong they have done; must express contrition and a sincere desire not to repeat that act; and must express willingness to make restitution as far as it is possible. If any of these conditions are not met, then forgiveness is not merited.'

@philokalia said
Some powerful words from St. Silouan the Athonite:

[quote]“We have such a law: If you forgive, it means that God has forgiven you; but if you do not forgive your brother, it means that your sin remains with you.”

+ St. Silouan the Athonite, Writings, VII.9

“Christ prayed for those that crucified Him: ‘Father, count not this sin against them; they know not what the ...[text shortened]... forgiveness, you actually do not want forgiveness at all but just want to feed your sense of pride.

"...and while you yet live, you must free yourself from [the evil spirit's] clutches through repentance"

Well, that's rather dramatic. And perhaps a tad condescending? ['Anyone who wrongs me damns themselves to the flames automatically.']

How about simply forgiving because I, too, am human and make mistakes?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
If a Christian doesn't seek forgiveness when they have been offensive, is their motivator also one of pride?

Christians are not a different species.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
@Philokalia

Adam Lee writes:

'In the secular morality of universal utilitarianism, forgiveness has a place...
UU teaches that human happiness is paramount, and refraining from causing others to suffer is our highest duty. When we violate that duty, we incur responsibility – the responsibility of undoing that hurt if possible and restoring the lost happiness; an ...[text shortened]... as far as it is possible. If any of these conditions are not met, then forgiveness is not merited.'

Thank God His forgiveness depends on Him and not us!