The acid test of Christianity

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
god became man in order to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself from a wrath he himself accrued... but he didn't really sacrifice himself because he raised himself from the dead and now he sits on the right hand of himself to rule his imaginary kingdom of himself for eternity.

that's absurdity taken to the next level!

But to us, who are being saved, it is the power and wisdom of God.

Originally posted by RJHinds
But to us, who are being saved, it is the power and wisdom of God.

Like I said, billions of deluded people. I can't fault anyone's belief since you are one of billions of like minded people. Nobody has answered my charge about christianity destroying cultures all over the planet in their arrogance of self described superiority.

I can only assume christians feel it is right and just to destroy cultures as long as the culture being destroyed gets 'saved' by converting to christianity.

Tell me I'm wrong.

BTW, you all seem to completely ignore my main charge: religions delude people. Maybe they even get convinced to feel better about a terrible life by being deluded into thinking so this life sucks, just wait for the next one.

I am not talking just about christianity here. Islam, Judaism, Hindu's, Rastafarians, they all are deluded.

Tell me how they can all be right when so many are diametrically opposed to one another and even the bible and the Qu'ran commands war against infidels.

Tell me how a god would let that happen.

BTW, I studied Scientology up close and personal for about one week in Washington DC, there was a small 'church' there.

I was basically sniffing them out, going through some of their propaganda and was even allowed into the back office upstairs.

There was a board with post it notes from L Ron. They called them Rongrams.

They dealt harshly with apostasy. There was a 'rongram' I read with my own eyes
in response to a question about what to do with these traitors who quit this so-called religion.

He wrote back on a note I read myself: "There is always the 45 solution".

Pretty clear his attitude. So many people lost everything to this nut job.

Tell me how your god would allow such atrocity? And all the rest of the atrocities?

One frigging word from your oh so loving god, a big blue finger coming out of the sky, YOU PISS ME OFF, would have made things pretty clear to all the Pol Pots and Saddam's and Hitlers of the world.

So this non-behavior is rationalized by the statement 'he gives us free will'.

So what about all the millions upon millions of people killed? Do they now get a free ride to your heaven because a tyrant killed them?

Or now are they to be judged on a life cut short, maybe they were killed as a 3 year old. How does your god judge that one? Automatic bye if you are under some limit? 22? What?

Can't you see the absurdities pile on top of absurdities when you look at the entire package of all the people on earth getting hosed by these religions? You get killed if you don't join, you get killed if you leave, but that's all put down to free will?

It just gets so deep in BS I cannot bring myself to be quiet about it any longer.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Ok agreed if I was tied up I could do nothing. I however feel very strongly that if I could do something I would. Some people are very passive I guess and would allow things to happen no matter what. R.C. is right however in the United States a lot of people have guns and for this very reason. It's not like the wild wild west or something but I guess my mentality comes from where I grew up. My dad would always say let me catch someone coming threw a window or door in our place to rob and they wish they never did!!! God forgive me but it's a defensive mentality. I guess your correct if someone put a gun to my head I might not be so brave though. BTW I feel bad for that guy you mentioned in that story.

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Ok agreed if I was tied up I could do nothing. I however feel very strongly that if I could do something I would. Some people are very passive I guess and would allow things to happen no matter what. R.C. is right however in the United States a lot of people have guns and for this very reason. It's not like the wild wild west or something but I guess my men ...[text shortened]... ight not be so brave though. BTW I feel bad for that guy you mentioned in that story.

Manny

Resist the illusion of opposition. It is only an illusion,after all.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Resist the illusion of opposition. It is only an illusion,after all.

It's not an illusion if someone whacks you upside the head!!! LOL 😉 Right?




Manny

Originally posted by menace71
It's not an illusion if someone whacks you upside the head!!! LOL 😉 Right?




Manny

The whole physicality thing is just a stage, dwell on it as long as you need to.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
The whole physicality thing is just a stage, dwell on it as long as you need to.

yeah that's what i was thinking when i was flying through the air after crashing my
motorcycle into the front of a taxi when it decided to do a u-turn in the middle of the
road, it wasn't until I hit the ground that i realised it was a myth!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yeah that's what i was thinking when i was flying through the air after crashing my
motorcycle into the front of a taxi when it decided to do a u-turn in the middle of the
road, it wasn't until I hit the ground that i realised it was a myth!

Think and you will be. Think as you would be. Think and there is no opposition,no physicality.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yeah that's what i was thinking when i was flying through the air after crashing my
motorcycle into the front of a taxi when it decided to do a u-turn in the middle of the
road, it wasn't until I hit the ground that i realised it was a myth!

did you have to goto hospital?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
did you have to goto hospital?

yes i did, i landed on the other side of the road, on the pavement, after what seemed
like an eternity flying through the air, an ambulance came and took me to hospital. I
have had motorcycle crashes before, many, mostly on dirt tracks though, but concrete
is very unforgiving!

Originally posted by sonhouse
Tell me I'm wrong....
Can't you see the absurdities pile on top of absurdities when you look at the entire package of all the people on earth getting hosed by these religions?

Hi sonhouse,

Wow, you got rid of quite a bit of steam there! Hope you feel better! 🙂

Unfortunately, you mixed up so many issues that it is impossible to answer your mail without looking at individual items.

Paraphrasing what Rob Bell said (in his book: Love Wins) that if I ask you what god it is that you don't believe in, then chances are pretty good that I don't believe in him either!

For example:

christianity destroying cultures all over the planet in their arrogance of self described superiority.

Many people (me included!) are realising that this kind of missionary zeal was not only misplaced, but very wrong! It was a sad period in "Christian" history, just like the crusades. Modern missionary activity is totally different, and seeks to encourage and value all the key points of a culture. For example, see the book "Peace Child" by Don Richardson.

Next point:

I am not talking just about christianity here. Islam, Judaism, Hindu's, Rastafarians, they all are deluded.

By definition, if ALL of these claim to have THE TRUTH, then it logically follows that at least some of them are in error. I would say that it is pretty safe to assume that ALL of these are in error somewhere, and also have at least SOME truth elswehere! It is pretty dangerous to make such sweeping statements...

Scientology....

It is also pretty safe to assume that many (if not most) spiritual persons would look askance at Scientology, perhaps for the very excesses that you mention. To use them as your argument, seriously weakens your case. I could find pretty bad and radical examples amongst atheists! But what would that prove??!

are they to be judged on a life cut short, maybe they were killed as a 3 year old. How does your god judge that one? Automatic bye if you are under some limit? 22? What?

This is a serious criticism of the official church doctrine in some cases. E.g. in the catholic church babies are safe from hellfire (purgatory) up to a certain age (not sure what it is, certainly not 22, more like 6 or 7) In this case, you are quite right in your criticism that logic would dictate that children are killed (mercifully) before they reach that age and hence risk hellfire. 😕

Serious thinking about such issues has caused many believers in God to abandon these doctrines, since they are incompatble with a lot of other teachings. (I may be offending some like RJH here, because I am pretty sure tha he still holds this official view)

My point in this response to your well reasoned post is that if you REALLY analise some of the issues that cause you to reject the whole ball of string you may well find that you don't have to accept all (or any) of your straw dogs to come to a rational conclusion that, yes, there IS a loving God behind the universe!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes i did, i landed on the other side of the road, on the pavement, after what seemed
like an eternity flying through the air, an ambulance came and took me to hospital. I
have had motorcycle crashes before, many, mostly on dirt tracks though, but concrete
is very unforgiving!

Yes, I hear you.

So how do you guys (JW's) view dreams? Do you put any significance on your dreams?
To me dreaming is one 'proof' of the Spirit. It is non-physical and to me absolutely integeral to learning about your own spirituality.

Originally posted by CalJust
Hi sonhouse,

Wow, you got rid of quite a bit of steam there! Hope you feel better! 🙂

Unfortunately, you mixed up so many issues that it is impossible to answer your mail without looking at individual items.

Paraphrasing what Rob Bell said (in his book: Love Wins) that if I ask you what god it is that you don't believe in, then chances are ...[text shortened]... s to come to a rational conclusion that, yes, there IS a loving God behind the universe!

Hi, thanks for the reasonable rebuttal without personal attacks. The point I made about Scientology was not aimed at providing evidence that Scientology itself shows there is no god but simply to show that there really are totally man made religions out there and my position is all the modern religions, 'modern' meaning those basically since Egyptian times, are all man made.

I cannot deny the possibility of a god existing in or out of our universe but it just seems clear to me if it does exist, it is like I said, non interacting.

I just don't think it would allow 'free will' to go to the extent of allowing millions of people to be summarily executed like the Chinese pogroms that killed whole villages simply because they did not want to convert to communism, I think the number bandied about was 33 million or so, ten times the Jewish holocaust.
Or numbers like that in Soviet Russia or the Pol Pot executions. We are pushing something like 100 million people right there. Of course having nothing to do with religion, just brute force ideologue killings by the multi millions.

How could this loving god of yours who obviously, being omniscient and all, clearly seeing what is going on, allow such monumentally scaled atrocity to take place?

It is my position this loving god would at least view the actions of these people as spoiling its experiment and would take steps to stop such atrocities even if they are based on non religious thuggery.

Then there are like you say, the atrocities completely based on religions like what is going on in Africa right now with the Muslims, convert or die.

I think it entirely possible modern christians would look on the terrible results of missionaries of previous centuries as reprehensible and for that they are to be commended but why do we need missionaries at all? Why isn't the totality of the christian faith satisfied with having something close to a billion followers?

If Christianity is that great, the deeds of the followers would by themselves show the rest of the world the validity of following Jesus, there would be no need of proselytizing about it.

The whole edifice of religion just gets more and more shaky the deeper you look into them.

I don't think a loving god would allow so many diametrically opposed religions to exists where there are actual written commandments to kill those of other religions.

Of course now, the response is, well that is all Old Testament stuff, we just don't believe it now.

But that means now christians pick and choose just what parts of the bible which by your own admission is the word of god, to go by.

The basic tenements of christianity are just reworked from previous religions that were around in Egyptian times and the Qu'ran has been shown to be practically word for word stories taken from mythology and such and now Muslims use those words as if they came from god itself.

I just cannot buy any of this any more.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Like I said, billions of deluded people. I can't fault anyone's belief since you are one of billions of like minded people. Nobody has answered my charge about christianity destroying cultures all over the planet in their arrogance of self described superiority.

I can only assume christians feel it is right and just to destroy cultures as long as the cul ust gets so deep in BS I cannot bring myself to be quiet about it any longer.

There are theologians that have made it their life's work to study the issues
you bring up and I have heard some of the replies, but it has been a long
time ago and those issues do not bother me now and I don't remember
the exact answers. So I probably would not do justice to them in trying to
repeat anything that I can remember. You might be able to get some of
the answers by going to some Christian websites and putting in your
questions even if you don't see anything written there that deals with your
questions.

I am not sure what you are referring to when you say cultures all over the
planet have been destroyed by Christianity. I am sure you must know by
now that "Scientology" is a cult and can not be trusted to present true
Christianity. It is twisted teachings by its teacher Ron Hubbard.

I would recommend you read something like "Kingdom of the Cults" by
Walter Martin to learn something about the false teachings of these cults.
In doing so, you will also learn about the true teachings of Jesus and
Christianity. However, there are some truths you can learn from some
of these cults that you will not learn from the mainstream Christian
churches; but these turths are not necessary for your salvation.