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Originally posted by @sonship to fmf“I'm declaring myself to be saved.”
I'm declaring myself to be saved.
He like you is declaring that he doesn't need to be.
I don’t know of anyone except you who has so plainly said this. I feel like some sort of group recognition is warranted. No kidding, I feel that way. It’s a big deal. Am I mistaken?
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Originally posted by @fmfGod said I mean something to Him. I agreed.
Well, apathist and I are not Christians. Are you declaring yourself to be a better and more worthy person than apathist because you have declared yourself to be "saved"?
God said you and apathist mean something to Him, And you both shrug.
You shrug and hunt for reasons to deny your Creator's very existence.
Look in the mirror and question yourself.
What are you without God ?
Originally posted by @sonshipI am not a Christian, sonship. "With" your god figure, you seem to me to be a sanctimonious windbag. I imagine you might be a more interesting person with more valuable things to say to me if you were "without" your god figure and "without" your torturer god ideology.
God said I mean something to Him. I agreed.
God said you and apathist mean something to Him, And you both shrug.
You shrug and hunt for reasons to deny your Creator's very existence.
Look in the mirror and question yourself.
What are you without God ?
07 Jul 18
Originally posted by @sonshipNo. Not one iota.
Anyone else ?
Has Divegeester's arguments for a [b]Kinder Gentler Non-Forever Judging Lord and Savior made you MORE inclined to believe the life and work of Jesus ?
( I never argued that there was no other teaching in the Bible ).
I got one ambiguous grumble.
Any other CLEAR indications that you are MORE inclined towards the Bible's God ...[text shortened]... t more believable to you? More desirable perhaps ??
I'm out here on a limb now. So speak up.[/b]
But I do consider people who don't get on their knees and pray to a god that tortures people for all eternity and love that god and consider that god the ultimate standard of morality to be much, much, much better people than the vile creatures that approve of eternal torture.
As wacky and silly and stupid as the superstitious beliefs of that first group may be.
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08 Jul 18
2 edits
Originally posted by @great-king-rat
No. Not one iota.
But I do consider people who don't get on their knees and pray to a god that tortures people for all eternity and love that god and consider that god the ultimate standard of morality to be much, much, much better people than the vile creatures that approve of eternal torture.
As wacky and silly and stupid as the superstitious beliefs of that first group may be.
No. Not one iota.
Don't think the disappointment is mine.
I always expected as much. I think it was DIvegeester who hopes that a God who warns but does nothing would more attractive.
But I do consider people who don't get on their knees and pray to a god that tortures people for all eternity and love that god and consider that god the ultimate standard of morality to be much, much, much better people than the vile creatures that approve of eternal torture.
I think it is torture enough to be so without a sense of origin or destiny or purpose as the atheist manifests. It torture enough not to know the Father's love in this dark world.
The lake of fire is just God giving you heads up that you're not going to enjoy eternal separation from God. You can't blame God for communicating this to the rebel in terms that it is impossible for him to misunderstand.
As wacky and silly and stupid as the superstitious beliefs of that first group may be.
World history has the life and words of Jesus Christ of whom whatever you may not like of Him, whose testimony could hardly be described as "wacky and silly."
His thorough and deep work that we be reconciled to God, because we do not know what danger we are in, could hardly be described as "wacky and silly."
Originally posted by @sonshipOne would have to think - judging by your comment above - that you had never ever discussed "origin or destiny or purpose" with atheists [which we both know is not that case] or that you are pretending not to have had such conversations [which is possible because you rarely pass up the opportunity to use a straw man or to attribute things of your own imagination to people with who you disagree].
I think it is torture enough to be so without a sense of origin or destiny or purpose as the atheist manifests.
If by the expression "without a sense of origin or destiny" means the outlook of those atheists would not satisfy you, then maybe that's what you should say rather than glibly and self-servingly ditch the content of maybe a thousand conversations with people who do not share your religious beliefs.
If you have found a way to come to terms with the inevitability of death and you have conjured up a sense of origin, destiny and purpose through your religious beliefs, then good for you.
I extend the same good wishes to people of any religion for whom their beliefs give them solace and meaning and a sense of community ~ assuming that it also results in them behaving in a morally sound way.
Originally posted by @sonship"I think it was DIvegeester who hopes that a God who warns but does nothing would more attractive."No. Not one iota.
Don't think the disappointment is mine.
I always expected as much. I think it was DIvegeester who hopes that a God who warns but does nothing would more attractive.
[quote]
But I do consider people who don't get on their knees and pray to a god that tortures people for all eternity and love that god and consider ...[text shortened]... d, because we do not know what danger we are in, could hardly be described as "wacky and silly."
Of course a god that doesn't torture people for all eternity is more attractive than one who does torture people for all eternity. This is pretty obvious, no?
He just not at all more believable.
Both your silly god and Divegeester's silly god are terribly unbelievable and quite laughable. I must always remind myself "these people squabbling over their gods... they are grown-ups and not even deemed metally retarded by society".
It amazes me.
The lake of fire is just God giving you heads up that you're not going to enjoy eternal separation from God. You can't blame God for communicating this to the rebel in terms that it is impossible for him to misunderstand.
Teehee... your omnipotent god really couldn't find better words to describe seperation from him than "Uh, yeah, so, yeah, uhhh... it's like, uhhhmmm, like, you're in some kind of lake of fire, you know. It's like, totally not cool."
You amuse me, Sonny
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08 Jul 18
Originally posted by @great-king-rat
[b]"I think it was DIvegeester who hopes that a God who warns but does nothing would more attractive."
Of course a god that doesn't torture people for all eternity is more attractive than one who does torture people for all eternity. This is pretty obvious, no?
He just not at all more believable.
Both your silly god and Divegeester's sil ...[text shortened]... 're in some kind of lake of fire, you know. It's like, totally not cool."
You amuse me, Sonny[/b]
Of course a god that doesn't torture people for all eternity is more attractive than one who does torture people for all eternity. This is pretty obvious, no?
I don't see God in the Bible from chapter 1 of Genesis to chapter 22 of Revelation as defined only as a torturer. I don't see that theme is blown up way out of proportion to everything else.
I can read the Bible for pages after pages, chapters after chapters, and books after books without a reference to the Torturer that some people are obsessed with.
I can read pages of deeds and words of the Son of God without the first and prominent thing in my face being His so-called methods of torture.
I do see God WARN of what sin can do in ruining our relationship with God and damaging ourselves. I can see that His warnings are not empty warnings as bluffs.
I can see some instances of follow through so that men may know that God means what He says. And mostly I can see God's plan of redemption, forgiveness, reconciliation, justification, and glorification unto eternal life in Christ's work.
Now we come to the matter of consequences
I can see that there is a realm of separation from God for eternity which none of us speaking here have experienced. I can see that we cannot imagine that sphere and realm.
I can see God warning us in terms which are familiar to us and which it is impossible for us to not understand - that people will not enjoy to be on the bad side of God forever. And His telling us, even though the terms He may use are more than dreadful, is His faithfulness to tell us of a truth which otherwise we would be deceived about.
He just not at all more believable.
Both your silly god and Divegeester's silly god are terribly unbelievable and quite laughable. I must always remind myself "these people squabbling over their gods... they are grown-ups and not even deemed metally retarded by society".
And I say again. Jesus Christ is the Man from whom we learn about both the uttermost love of God for sinners and the severity of God's warnings that it matters to be reconciled to God.
And the testimony that His words, His life, His deeds, His death and resurrection left upon human history (whatever you don't agree with them about) could hardly be described as silly.
It amazes me.
It amazes me that from the same mouth came the world's most memorable words spoken by a human being of grace, mercy, forgiveness, pardon, understanding, AND the severity of rejecting so great a salvation.
It amazes me that the same man spoke and lived these teachings.
It amazes me that the Bible says that God made HIM sin on the cross for you and I that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
I think Gospel has its hands on too much beautiful truth to be silly or amazingly wacky.
Have to go for now.
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08 Jul 18
Sonship is this silly thread some sort of revered engineered way of you being able to claim that telling people that they will be tortured alive for eternity by Jesus who loves them (at the moment) if they reject him...is not harmful to the gospel?
Or, is it simply a "who wants to be in my gang vs divegeester"?
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08 Jul 18
Originally posted by @great-king-rat😵
Both your silly god and Divegeester's silly god are terribly unbelievable and quite laughable. I must always remind myself "these people squabbling over their gods... they are grown-ups and not even deemed metally retarded by society".
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08 Jul 18
Originally posted by @great-king-ratNo no no! It's not obvious.
Of course a god that doesn't torture people for all eternity is more attractive than one who does torture people for all eternity. This is pretty obvious, no?
Sonship believes that non-Christians being burnt alive for eternity is "God's perfect justice".
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08 Jul 18
2 edits
Originally posted by @divegeester
No no no! It's not obvious.
Sonship believes that non-Christians being burnt alive for eternity is "God's perfect justice".
Sonship believes that non-Christians being burnt alive for eternity is "God's perfect justice".
Sonship believes Revelation 20:15 along with that thousands of words about Christ's redemption.
Sonship believes that Divegeester and I are both the effect of the Cause of a Creator God. And sonship believes it is impossible that that creature could be bestowed with a morality superior to his Maker.
How would God be able to give what He did not have in Himself TO give? So I don't believe that the created Divegeester must turn around to his Creator and and IMPROVE his Creator with what he, Divegeester, has, Namely, a higher sense of Rightness and Justice.
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08 Jul 18
1 edit
Sonship also believes that it is God's responsibility to communicate to us in terms we can understand ABOUT realms which we cannot know now the nature and details of . Namely what would eternal separation from God would mean.
Sonship believes one should spend at least an equal amount of time contemplating all that Christ did that we might be saved as one contemplates the serious warnings about what it would mean to reject salvation once it is offered.