Originally posted by KellyJayI dont know what to make of what you say, mostly because you constantly make statements that you do not support with bible references. You quoted Matt 7:21-23 passage and when I am showing what it is saying [totally different from what you think it is saying], you ignore that.
The devils believe in God and they are going to hell along with quite a few others.
The fact that they did good works, and they ended up in Hell is my point, works is not the
point of all of this! You need to know the Lord and DO THE WORKS OF GOD.
This has never been just one or the other, because both are right as you are presenting
to everyone. You' ...[text shortened]... the works of God! If we just do good
works in His name, ignoring Him, we will die in our sins.
Your version of that passages is that Christ is condeming these people even though they did good work [that is totally wrong]. That Christ is codemning them becasue he did not know them. WHen I ask what ou think it means 'to know Christ' you do not answer.
It would be nice if you can produce some references for statements like this:
1. The devils believe in God and they are going to hell along with quite a few others.
The fact that they did good works, and they ended up in Hell is my point.
2. You need to know the Lord and DO THE WORKS OF GOD.
3. have a good relationship with Him
4. If we just do good works in His name, ignoring Him, we will die in our sins.
With regard to #3 what did the BIBLE SAY about a good relationship with Christ?
As for this comment if you don't have Christ you are condemned already, Jesus said that as I pointed out to you in scripture which you read and ignored. .. I did not ignore it. What I said about it was that Christ was referring to people who HEARD HIS PREACHING AND IGNORED HIM. THOSE ARE CONDEMNED. Chrst cannot possibly be referring to those how never heard of him. How can people believe or be condemned if they never heard of him?
Originally posted by Rajk999I guess I'll stop taking for granted you've actually studied the Bible and know it when I tell
I dont know what to make of what you say, mostly because you constantly make statements that you do not support with bible references. You quoted Matt 7:21-23 passage and when I am showing what it is saying [totally different from what you think it is saying], you ignore that.
Your version of that passages is that Christ is condeming these people even th ...[text shortened]... those how never heard of him. How can people believe or be condemned if they never heard of him?
you something in it. I actually assumed you'd know this verse since it is one that I'd share
with those that think all they have to do is mouth the words I believe in God and just hang
on that! If you need me to show you where in scripture it says that the devil and his
angels are going to be cast into the lake of fire I will.
James 2:
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Jesus in Matt 7: 21-21 did not deny these people did the works they claimed they did,
but He did deny knowing them! They did claim Jesus was Lord, again, Jesus denied
knowing them! This is very clear to me that knowing Jesus Christ is very important, and
if all you got is works and not Christ, depart from me I never knew you will be all you can
hope to hear from Jesus. Moreover, where would those that do not know God through
Jesus hope to show up under these conditions? Since Jesus said in that those that do
not believe in Him are condemned already?
Matt 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
You are changing scripture to suit your beliefs and not accepting it as written if you
are going to say that what Christ was saying are those that heard his preaching and
ignored Him, Jesus was quite clear if they did not believe they were condemned already
you are adding to Jesus words now not just taking what He says and living with it.
John 3:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
How can people believe or be condemned if they have never heard of Him, quite simple
Jesus said if they did not they were condemned already, He also said very few find the
narrow way which is Jesus! We need to share, if we do not guess whose blood in on our
hands?
Matt 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes.
Ok, glad to hear that your beliefs are not fixed in stone.
What of the idea in the opening post. Is there a difference between unbelievers who were once believers that have fallen away, and unbelievers that never had an opportunity to understand about Christ?
“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
(Matthew 13:18-23 NKJV)
Originally posted by KellyJayI asked for biblical support for this statement you made.
I guess I'll stop taking for granted you've actually studied the Bible and know it when I tell
you something in it. I actually assumed you'd know this verse since it is one that I'd share
with those that think all they have to do is mouth the words I believe in God and just hang
on that! If you need me to show you where in scripture it says that the dev ...[text shortened]... ugh it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
1. The devils believe in God and they are going to hell along with quite a few others.
The fact that they did good works, and they ended up in Hell is my point.
If you can provide that it would be nice.
Next you said this:
Jesus in Matt 7: 21-21 did not deny these people did the works they claimed they did,
but He did deny knowing them! They did claim Jesus was Lord, again, Jesus denied
knowing them! This is very clear to me that knowing Jesus Christ is very important,
But Christ called them workers of iniquity. You keep harping of KNOWING JESUS CHRIST, but so far you cannot explain what that entails.
Again it would be nice if you can provide some references for that.
I did provide some references for what the Bible said about knowing Christ and abiding in Christ, which you ignored.
Originally posted by RJHindsCertainly not what Christianity sells these days. Some people are going to pay dearly for selling false doctrines to the innocent people.
Yes.“Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with j ...[text shortened]... it and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
(Matthew 13:18-23 NKJV)
Originally posted by Rajk999You should quote me exactly I never said they did good works.
I asked for biblical support for this statement you made.
1. The devils believe in God and they are going to hell along with quite a few others.
The fact that they did good works, and they ended up in Hell is my point.
If you can provide that it would be nice.
Next you said this:
[i]Jesus in Matt 7: 21-21 did not deny these people did the ...[text shortened]... eferences for what the Bible said about knowing Christ and abiding in Christ, which you ignored.
Please I cannot guess what it is you are talking about if you start making stuff up.
Reference what it was I said you want cleared up, put it in quotes and show me the words
I used not how you twisted them in your head.
Originally posted by KellyJayYou said this originally:
You should quote me exactly I never said they did good works.
Please I cannot guess what it is you are talking about if you start making stuff up.
Reference what it was I said you want cleared up, put it in quotes and show me the words
I used not how you twisted them in your head.
1. The devils believe in God and they are going to hell along with quite a few others.
The fact that they did good works, and they ended up in Hell is my point.
Now you are saying this:
I never said they did good works.
Originally posted by Rajk999I will have to give you this in that I said it, but it wasn't my intent to imply the devils did good
You said this originally:
1. The devils believe in God and they are going to hell along with quite a few others.
The fact that they did good works, and they ended up in Hell is my point.
Now you are saying this:
I never said they did good works.
works. I was lumping them together with those that also believed and are going to be going
to Hell.
You were right to take me to task on this, I worded it poorly and should have been called
out on it. Because I do not believe that, I could not see myself saying it, till I found the
text you were referring too.
By bad, your right, I'm wrong.
Matt7:21-23 Commentary.
“will enter into the kingdom of heaven.” The kingdom of heaven will be the
kingdom that Jesus will set up on the earth after he comes down from heaven and fights
the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19). People who get to enter the kingdom live forever, so in this context the phrase means having everlasting life and living in the kingdom,
complete with all the kingdom blessings of perfect health, safety, no hunger, etc.
7:23. “Depart from me, you who work lawlessness.” This verse is written about people
before the Day of Pentecost who acted as if they are walking with Christ and obeying
God but were not.
Today a Christian can turn from God and live lawlessly and selfishly without his everlasting life being in jeopardy, but before the Age of Grace that was possible because there was no New Birth and no guarantee of salvation.
It is very important that Christians understand this verse in Matthew, even though
it was written to people who lived before the Administration of Grace.
The general principle is that even if people do some good things or utilize the power of God, if their use of God’s power is outside the will of God such as being for their own aggrandizement or done without love, it is not pleasing to God. The phrase “depart from me” has to be taken in the context of verse 21, which speaks of entering into the Kingdom of Heaven and having everlasting life. Before the Day of Pentecost, those people who were not faithful to God will have to depart from Christ and will not receive everlasting life.
We should ask the question, “When can we use the power of God and be outside the will of God?” The abilities, talents, and ministries that people have are given to them by God. In contrast to our God-given talents, which we naturally possess, is godly character, which takes a lot of effort to develop. Developing godly qualities such as the fruit of the spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23) or the character that leaders are supposed to have (1 Tim. 3:3-12; Titus 1:6-9) is hard work.
In the systems of the world that Satan sets up or oversees, talent is more valuable than character. If a person is a good singer and can pack an auditorium, the fact that he or she is a drunkard, sexually immoral, mean-spirited, etc., gets overlooked by the world. This attitude must never be allowed to leak over into the way believers do things.
Every believer has God-given talents. There are believers who are great singers, administrators, teachers, businesspeople, etc., but their talent and their success are never as important as whether or not they exhibit the character of Christ. That was the case in this section of Matthew. Jesus teaches us that at the Judgment men and women with ministries and abilities in prophecy, working miracles and discerning of spirits will come forward, proud of their “great accomplishments.”
However, if these people did not develop the character of Christ and did not walk in obedience to God, then they “did their own thing,” and thus they are said to “work lawlessness,” i.e., do things in a way that does not follow the ways and laws of God. This is made clear by the last phrase in verse 21, which makes the point that these people did not do the will of God.
We must not be confused by the fact that the people Jesus was referring to here in
Matthew had holy spirit and were casting out demons, and think because of that this was
a reference to people who were born again, like Christians are today.
The New Birth that we Christians have started on the Day of Pentecost, but God had given the gift of holy spirit to many people in the Old Testament. Many leaders of Israel had it (cp. Num. 11:17, 25), the prophets, the judges in the book of Judges, many kings like David and Solomon, and others, had the gift of holy spirit upon them, not in them.
By J. Shoenheit
Originally posted by KellyJayOk good .. no big deal. The issue is whether there are any recorded instances of people doing good works and then are condemned by Christ. I would wager that there are none.
I will have to give you this in that I said it, but it wasn't my intent to imply the devils did good
works. I was lumping them together with those that also believed and are going to be going
to Hell.
You were right to take me to task on this, I worded it poorly and should have been called
out on it. Because I do not believe that, I could not see myself saying it, till I found the
text you were referring too.
By bad, your right, I'm wrong.
In the Matt 7 passage, some claimed to believe and to follow Christ and to do good works. Christ however called them workers of iniquity .. or evil doers. Clearly their works are NOT GOOD WORKS regardless of their claim.
Now you say- their works were good but BECAUSE Christ did not know them, they are condemned.
I would say it the other way around - CHRIST DID NOT KNOW THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE EVILDOERS.
i produced a reference to support why I say it that way. Im still waiting to hear what exactly do you mean by KNOWING CHRIST .., with some supporting references.
Originally posted by checkbaiterMr J. Shorthead needs to have his head examined. If you swallow all that bull, then I suggest you too check in to the nearest mental institution.
Matt7:21-23 Commentary.
“will enter into the kingdom of heaven.” The kingdom of heaven will be the
kingdom that Jesus will set up on the earth after he comes down from heaven and fights
the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19). People who get to enter the kingdom live forever, so in this context the phrase means having everlasting life and living in the ki ...[text shortened]... and Solomon, and others, had the gift of holy spirit upon them, not in them.
By J. Shoenheit
The fact that so many Christians treat the teachings of Christ with such scant regard, by changing it, watering it down, and outright disrespecting it .. now claiming it does not apply to them .. then to claim that they love Jesus, they believe in Christ.
You people just LOVE YOURSELF ONLY, and you will reap your just reward.
Ask yourself if Christ knew that His teachings would only last a few months.... 😀
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Originally posted by Rajk999There are no innocent "unbelievers", or even innocent believers.
It appears to be the contention of some Christians that there are only two groups of people in the world - those who enjoy eternal bliss in Gods Kingdom and those who suffer in eternal torment in the lake of fire. This doctrine seems to be the result of applying the most unmerciful interpretation of this passage by Christ here:
[i]John 3:18 He that beli ...[text shortened]... d that leads them to righteousness. These will be raised judged by God and rewarded accordingly.
Have you not read Romans 3:10 or 3:23?
Therefore, in light of God's Truth as revealed in His Word, your argument is made void and nil.
Read God's Word and believe what God says and quit spewing your irrational, irrelevant and meaningless self-righteous human viewpoint.
Originally posted by josephwThe passages you quote says:
There are no innocent "unbelievers", or even innocent believers.
Have you not read Romans 3:10 or 3:23?
Therefore, in light of God's Truth as revealed in His Word, your argument is made void and nil.
Read God's Word and believe what God says and quit spewing your irrational, irrelevant and meaningless self-righteous human viewpoint.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Paul also says this:
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:13-15 KJV)
Do you think that everyone in the world, from Adam until now, had the benefit of having someone preach the word of God to them?