1. Standard memberRajk999
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    20 Jul '15 20:521 edit
    It appears to be the contention of some Christians that there are only two groups of people in the world - those who enjoy eternal bliss in Gods Kingdom and those who suffer in eternal torment in the lake of fire. This doctrine seems to be the result of applying the most unmerciful interpretation of this passage by Christ here:

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    However, Paul said this:
    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:13-15 KJV)

    Paul is asking - How is it possible to believe in someone that they have not heard of? The answer to his rhetorical question is that it is not possible, thereby saying also that God would not be so cruel as to sentence to eternal torment those people who have not even heard of Christ

    Of this group of those who have not heard of Christ [ie not taught about Christ] there seems to be two types.
    1. Those who will die and not be raised for reward or punishment
    2. Those who will be raised for either reward or punishment.

    For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another๐Ÿ˜‰ In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Romans 2:11-16 KJV)

    Here the wording is clear. Those who have no law -[ either no law of Moses or Law of Christ], and they sin being without law, they will perish ie not raised from the dead.

    But there may be some whose conscience is their guide, the law being written in their hearts and that leads them to righteousness. These will be raised judged by God and rewarded accordingly.
  2. Joined
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    20 Jul '15 20:55
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    It appears to be the contention of some Christians that there are only two groups of people in the world - those who enjoy eternal bliss in Gods Kingdom and those who suffer in eternal torment in the lake of fire. This doctrine seems to be the result of applying the most unmerciful interpretation of this passage by Christ here:

    [i]John 3:18 He that beli ...[text shortened]... d that leads them to righteousness. These will be raised judged by God and rewarded accordingly.
    I suggest you take these questions to your pastor.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    20 Jul '15 21:01
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I suggest you take these questions to your pastor.
    ๐Ÿ˜€ Nice one. ๐Ÿ˜€

    For GB:

    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    20 Jul '15 21:15
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    It appears to be the contention of some Christians that there are only two groups of people in the world - those who enjoy eternal bliss in Gods Kingdom and those who suffer in eternal torment in the lake of fire. This doctrine seems to be the result of applying the most unmerciful interpretation of this passage by Christ here:

    [i]John 3:18 He that beli ...[text shortened]... d that leads them to righteousness. These will be raised judged by God and rewarded accordingly.
    Isn't it clean from that also? It is the believer that is saved.

    HalleluYaH !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '15 00:58
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I suggest you take these questions to your pastor.
    The pastor said they will be tormented for eternity.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '15 00:59
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Isn't it clean from that also? It is the believer that is saved.

    HalleluYaH !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
    The believer is one of the groups that gets into Gods Kingdom. Not the only one
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    21 Jul '15 02:22
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The believer is one of the groups that gets into Gods Kingdom. Not the only one
    The unbeliever is cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone according to the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '15 09:33
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    [b]It appears to be the contention of some Christians that there are only two groups of people in the world - those who enjoy eternal bliss in Gods Kingdom and those who suffer in eternal torment in the lake of fire. This doctrine seems to be the result of applying the most unmerciful interpretation of this passage by Christ here:

    [i]John 3:18 He that beli ...[text shortened]... nd that leads them to righteousness. These will be raised judged by God and rewarded accordingly.[/b
    Jesus didn't teach that!

    If God wanted to save those that have not heard about Christ, why send Christ?
    That would mean that all of those that did hear would now be at risk, Christ would be a
    death sentence not life for them!

    You are really jumping through hoops here to try and show anyone can be saved without
    Jesus Christ. The issue is that all of us have is we have sinned, every single one of us,
    and because of that we are going to stand before God in our sins unless Jesus saves us.

    Jesus said those that do not believe are condemned already it is very clear even with
    you attempting to alter His words.

    Just because some times we can do things that are NOT sinful, does not void out all the
    times we do sin. If Jesus does not forgive us, we will die in our sins.

    Paul is stressing how important it is to preach the gospel, he is not suggesting anything
    against Jesus teaching as you are here!

    There is no one whose conscience will be clean before God, ALL have sinned. They may
    do things again that are not sinful, but if they sin, they are sinners and will be judged
    accordingly.
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    21 Jul '15 10:181 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    If God wanted to save those that have not heard about Christ, why send Christ?
    If God wanted to save those that have not heard about Christ, why send Christ?

    Jesus didn't teach this either. This comment you make is unscriptural. God intends that all should be saved and that non should perish. That is what scripture says. Ezekiel 33:11, 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4
  10. Subscribersonhouse
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    21 Jul '15 11:11
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The unbeliever is cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone according to the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
    And you would be laughing at their torment. Fortunately it's all BS, no heaven, no hell, just communal wishful thinking to hide the absolute fear your stinking religion fosters in people just to add to the coffers and control and political power. That is the sum of it all.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '15 11:59
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Jesus didn't teach that!

    If God wanted to save those that have not heard about Christ, why send Christ?
    That would mean that all of those that did hear would now be at risk, Christ would be a
    death sentence not life for them!

    You are really jumping through hoops here to try and show anyone can be saved without
    Jesus Christ. The issue is that all of ...[text shortened]... gs again that are not sinful, but if they sin, they are sinners and will be judged
    accordingly.
    Lets see if we can clear up one issue at a time. Suppose you die and you appear before God and God said to you .. 'KJ, you did not believe in my Son Hanuman, what have you to say for yourself?' Would you not be truly surprised? Because of your ignorance God would if He is just regard you as innocent.

    Paul is making that same point. Even today there are many that never heard of Christ, so imagine in Pauls time there would be even more.

    Christ's statement here

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    must mean that whoever HEARD OF ME AND DOES NOT BELIEVE , THEY ARE CONDEMNED.
  12. Subscribersonhouse
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    21 Jul '15 12:04
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Lets see if we can clear up one issue at a time. Suppose you die and you appear before God and God said to you .. 'KJ, you did not believe in my Son Hanuman, what have you to say for yourself?' Would you not be truly surprised? Because of your ignorance God would if He is just regard you as innocent.

    Paul is making that same point. Even today there are ...[text shortened]... on of God. [/i]

    must mean that whoever HEARD OF ME AND DOES NOT BELIEVE , THEY ARE CONDEMNED.
    As if a god would set up such an insane situation. That's what you get when humans invent religions where no real god is wanted, just instill fear in people so they are amenable to control and coincidentally build up a large political power base where also just coincidentally the leaders live in luxury.
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    21 Jul '15 12:11
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Because of your ignorance God would if He is just regard you as innocent.
    That applies equally well to those that have heard and do not believe. If he is just, he would regard them as innocent. At a guess, maybe 20 people read your post and now have heard of Hanuman. Not one of them believe. Why would God punish them for their lack of belief in Hanuman? I am willing to bet that you yourself do not believe in Hanuman despite clearly having heard of him.
    I really cannot see how you can claim that God would be just in punishing someone just because they did not believe something they heard. Belief is not something we choose and therefore cannot be regarded as a morally judge-able decision.
  14. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '15 12:33
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    That applies equally well to those that have heard and do not believe. If he is just, he would regard them as innocent. At a guess, maybe 20 people read your post and now have heard of Hanuman. Not one of them believe. Why would God punish them for their lack of belief in Hanuman? I am willing to bet that you yourself do not believe in Hanuman despite cle ...[text shortened]... ef is not something we choose and therefore cannot be regarded as a morally judge-able decision.
    You are going too fast. Im trying to get KJ to agree one step at a time. But since you brought it up. The expression 'hearing or Christ' cannot just mean to simply hear the name Christ. It must mean that the person was preached to about Christ the way Paul said it, rather than just hear the name Christ.

    In the time of Christ there were many to were preached to and because of their evil ways they avoided Christ. These are the people Christ is referring to here .. those whose evil ways caused them not to listen to preaching about Christ.

    In the same passage in John, Christ continues:

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:17-21 KJV)

    Christ is saying that there are some who love evil and hate Christ because Christ is the light that show up their evil deeds.
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '15 14:25
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Lets see if we can clear up one issue at a time. Suppose you die and you appear before God and God said to you .. 'KJ, you did not believe in my Son Hanuman, what have you to say for yourself?' Would you not be truly surprised? Because of your ignorance God would if He is just regard you as innocent.

    Paul is making that same point. Even today there are ...[text shortened]... on of God. [/i]

    must mean that whoever HEARD OF ME AND DOES NOT BELIEVE , THEY ARE CONDEMNED.
    Lets see what the Bible says not KJ or Rajk999, okay, let us do that instead of adding to
    God's Word.

    Matthew 7:13-15New International Version (NIV)

    The Narrow and Wide Gates

    13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    True and False Prophets

    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

    You keep pushing salvation or people can enter God's Kingdom without Jesus I'm going
    to start believing inwardly, you don't have people's best interest at heart. The truth no
    matter how good or bad it sounds to you will still be the truth, Very few people are going
    to find Christ, that is sad, Jesus deserves better from us than what He is getting.
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