The Fate of Innocent Unbelievers

Originally posted by divegeester
Tell me more about the circumstances you claim justify a person being burnt alive for what they do or don't believe?

The Holy Bible is the place where you should ... Seek, and ye shall find. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Holy Bible is the place where you should ... Seek, and ye shall find. 😏

But it is not the Bible that is claiming this, it is you.

Posting a flippant comment like this one, with one of your silly smug smilies does not carry much weight in this discussion.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Jesus' words not mine if you read the scripture I posted you'd saw this.

23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Ok, I read Jesus' words and it seems to be saying stuff completely different from what you said.
Here is Christ:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:21-23)
Here is You:
Yes, not everyone who claims to know Christ does, and these guys below did a lot of 
works, no one says otherwise, but what they lacked was Jesus. You recall this scripture 
ON JUDGMENT day they tell Jesus all the things they did in His name? There will be no 
lies told on that day, Jesus does not deny they did those things, yet He did deny He 
knew them! 

Christ :Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
You: Yes, not everyone who claims to know Christ does,
Me : Ok I agree

Christ :Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
You: these guys below did a lot of works, no one says otherwise
Me : NO .. these guys SAID THAT THEY DID GOOD WORKS .. Christ never said they did good works. Christ very clearly says otherwise .. that they are evil doers.

Your definition of what it means to KNOW CHRIST is not the same as the Bible definition. The reason why Christ did not know them is that they did not do the will of the Father.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok, I read Jesus' words and it seems to be saying stuff completely different from what you said.
Here is Christ:
[i]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy nam ...[text shortened]... inition. The reason why Christ did not know them is that they did not do the will of the Father.

Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

(John 6:28-29 NASB)

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

(1 John 1:23 NASB)

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

(John 6:40 NASB)

Rajk999 said, "The reason why Christ did not know them is that they did not do the will of the Father."

SO WHAT IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER?

DIDN'T THE ABOVE VERSES ANSWER THAT QUESTION?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok, I read Jesus' words and it seems to be saying stuff completely different from what you said.
Here is Christ:
[i]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy nam ...[text shortened]... inition. The reason why Christ did not know them is that they did not do the will of the Father.

If you bothered to read the quote I had in the post you responded to you would have seen
the very thing I was speaking about. If you want to deny Jesus said those things just by
bringing up other things Jesus said. You simply are not being honest.

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you bothered to read the quote I had in the post you responded to you would have seen
the very thing I was speaking about. If you want to deny Jesus said those things just by
bringing up other things Jesus said. You simply are not being honest.

He seems like one of those that are too proud to admit they are wrong.

Originally posted by Rajk999
It appears to be the contention of some Christians that there are only two groups of people in the world - those who enjoy eternal bliss in Gods Kingdom and those who suffer in eternal torment in the lake of fire. This doctrine seems to be the result of applying the most unmerciful interpretation of this passage by Christ here:

[i]John 3:18 He that beli ...[text shortened]... d that leads them to righteousness. These will be raised judged by God and rewarded accordingly.

There is an orthodox position which holds that there is a third class of people: those who, through no fault of their own, have not heard the word of god. These include unbaptized infants, and heathens to whom no missionary has appeared. They will receive a special dispensation.

Originally posted by moonbus
There is an orthodox position which holds that there is a third class of people: those who, through no fault of their own, have not heard the word of god. These include unbaptized infants, and heathens to whom no missionary has appeared. They will receive a special dispensation.

I heard about that doctrine. Although it sounds like the correct thing to do, it is not in the Bible.

To KJ and RJH. This example given in Matt

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mat 7:21-23) 

Contradicts the doctrine that you both appear to preach.

Here we have a bunch of people standing before Christ who
believe in Christ
thought they were doing the will of God
have faith
thought they did good works
called on the name of Jesus
thought they knew Christ
probably thought they were eternally saved
probably thought that sin would not be counted against them

The truth was the opposite
they believe in Christ with their mouth
their were not doing the will of God
their faith was dead
their calling on the name of Jesus was useless
Christ did not know them
they were not eternally saved
they were workers of iniquity who did not receive forgiveness
they would not get into Gods Kingdom

The reason why they did not know Christ is stated in John:

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1John 2:3-6)

Originally posted by Rajk999
To KJ and RJH. This example given in Matt

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And ...[text shortened]... that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1John 2:3-6)

I don't believe I presented any scripture that conflicts with that. I don't recall any of the scriptures I presented that say one ONLY has to profess belief with the mouth without also believing in the heart. Belief in the heart, also carries with it the desire to obey the commandment to love your fellow Christians or, as it is put in scripture, to love one another.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I don't believe I presented any scripture that conflicts with that. I don't recall any of the scriptures I presented that say one ONLY has to profess belief with the mouth without also believing in the heart. Belief in the heart, also carries with it the desire to obey the commandment to love your fellow Christians.

Actually the commandment is to love your neighbour. Anyway you mist have changed your belief in the last couple years. You were squarely in the OSAS camp not too long ago.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Actually the commandment is to love your neighbour. Anyway you mist have changed your belief in the last couple years. You were squarely in the OSAS camp not too long ago.

Perhaps it was because I said I was baptized as a Southern Baptist that you thought I was in the OSAS camp. I had always had doubts about the OSAS idea from the time I heard of it after my baptism. I even stated on this Forum long ago that i did not believe in that idea. I believe it was to the JW, robbie carobbie, that i first stated that on RHP.

However, I do believe in all the other beliefs of the Southern Baptist Church which are orthodox Christian doctrines, including the Trinity.

Let me make it plain to you that I believe that I must be a believer when I die. If I were to depart from the faith and become an unbeliever and remain that way at the time of death, I will be considered an unbeliever at Judgment time.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Perhaps it was because I said I was baptized as a Southern Baptist that you thought I was in the OSAS camp. I had always had doubts about the OSAS idea from the time I heard of it after my baptism. I even stated on this Forum long ago that i did not believe in that idea. I believe it was to the JW, robbie carobbie, that i first stated that on RHP.

Howe ...[text shortened]... r and remain that way at the time of death, I will be considered an unbeliever at Judgment time.

Ok, glad to hear that your beliefs are not fixed in stone.

What of the idea in the opening post. Is there a difference between unbelievers who were once believers that have fallen away, and unbelievers that never had an opportunity to understand about Christ?

Originally posted by RJHinds
He seems like one of those that are too proud to admit they are wrong.

Oh .. so what did I say that is wrong? Is not that passage a very clear contradiction of just about everything Christians generally believe about judgment day and eternal life?

I have heard several Christians say that in judgment day sin would not be counted against them. Checkbaiter said that all he has to do is to point to Christ and his righteousness and say "Christ is righteous therefore I am ok because I believe in Christ".

Here in Mat 7:21-23, we have people who obviously believe in Christ and are being condemned for their sins. They stand on their own. No kind of passing the buck to Christ is allowed.

Originally posted by Rajk999
To KJ and RJH. This example given in Matt

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And ...[text shortened]... that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1John 2:3-6)

The devils believe in God and they are going to hell along with quite a few others.
The fact that they did good works, and they ended up in Hell is my point, works is not the
point of all of this! You need to know the Lord and DO THE WORKS OF GOD.

This has never been just one or the other, because both are right as you are presenting
to everyone. You'll never get to God on just works, if you don't have Christ you are
condemned already, Jesus said that as I pointed out to you in scripture which you read
and ignored.

If you believe in Christ, have a good relationship with Him, come to Him as He asks of us
and follow Him, He is our righteousness, we will do the works of God! If we just do good
works in His name, ignoring Him, we will die in our sins.