23 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by amannionGood post.
God is good. Man is bad.
You've just summed up the reason for my atheism. This pathetic notion that somehow we humans are not worthy, or that we have some innate evil nature.
Absolute crap.
I am not bad. I am not evil.
I may do bad things, I may even do evil things. But I am who I am. A human being with virtues and faults all jammed packed together.
I reject your view of the world and celebrate humans. We are good and bad.
God does not exist.
To be fair, not all religions are like that. But it's still one of the reasons that drove me to atheism but it isn't why I'm an atheist.
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by josephwIt is not a lie. He believes every word of it. So do I. It is also true. The problem is that you do not understand English enough to realize that it is true. Many of the words used are relative and as such depend on who is talking in order to take meaning. For example you may say "God is Just" and I may say "God is unjust" and we can both be right. There is no such thing as absolute justice. In fact you probably define justice as 'whatever God wants' and so for you to say God is just is meaningless circular nonsense.
It's a complete lie, told by a liar, to anyone that will believe it.
23 Jul 07
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Originally posted by StregoneI think you have exaggerated things somewhat and ignored other elements of God as portrayed in the OT but there is definitely this strand to the OT God. In the OT God is vengeful and violent and generally a part projection of Jewish nationalism and culture.
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. ~ Pg. 31
You know what , since the Jewish perception of God was skewed and faulty , I think God should definitely done something about it. It's only fair! He should have come down in person and corrected things and given us an ammended version. They could have called it the New Testament or something. We could have used it to counterbalance the OT God and put the Jewish perception of God into context.
Pity God didn't do this . Now all we have is Atheists ranting on about the OT God as if that is actually what he is really like and we have no defence.
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by rwingettYes, you get warned you refuse your heart gets harden, it is the way
There are about 20 passages in the bible that say, very clearly, that it was god who hardened Pharaoh's heart. It was god who caused Pharaoh to act the way he did. It's quite clear that god didn't want Pharaoh to let the Israelites go peacefully. He caused Pharaoh to oppose him so he would have an excuse to display his might. As Dawkins observed, it's the type of action more typical of a spiteful bully than an almighty god.
of it, if you reject the direction you know you should take your heart
gets hard. The same action toward another wouldn't harden the heart
but soften it, because of our will to act as we see fit. God makes it
very clear this is what he wants and Pharaoh instead of humbling
himself before God, steals himself against what is right before his
eyes.
Kelly
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by KellyJaySo maybe Dawkins should have said:
Yes, you get warned you refuse your heart gets harden, it is the way
of it, if you reject the direction you know you should take your heart
gets hard. The same action toward another wouldn't harden the heart
but soften it, because of our will to act as we see fit. God makes it
very clear this is what he wants and Pharaoh instead of humbling
himself before God, steals himself against what is right before his
eyes.
Kelly
"The God in the Bible as I understand it ..."
Because you obviously are capable of interpreting everything differently from the average reader. Maybe someone should send Dawkins one of those Secret Decoder Rings and he will see whats really written in the Bible. Until then, do you at least accept that the God as portrayed by the Bible and understood by the average reader is accurately described by Dawkins?
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by KellyJayYou refuse to read the text as it is written. Pharaoh did not steel himself against what is right. God steeled him. The bible says repeatedly that god hardened Pharaoh's heart, not that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Pharaoh did not have free will in that situation because god had made his decision for him.
Yes, you get warned you refuse your heart gets harden, it is the way
of it, if you reject the direction you know you should take your heart
gets hard. The same action toward another wouldn't harden the heart
but soften it, because of our will to act as we see fit. God makes it
very clear this is what he wants and Pharaoh instead of humbling
himself before God, steals himself against what is right before his
eyes.
Kelly
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by Bosse de NageOK, I accept that I was wrong on that one.
Invoke the myth of the average reader at your peril...
So, kelly:
Do you at least accept that it is perfectly conceivable that an intelligent sane person when reading the Old Testament could easily come to the same conclusion as Dawkins? Do you think Dawkins and others who agree with him are making it up or just don't have the appropriate Decoder Ring?
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by KellyJayUsing your own logic...would it be unreasonable of me to be upset with my father if he tried to kill me?
We are talking about God, correct? The same God if you take
scripture as is, setup the universe which includes all the laws of
nature and physics as well. All will die, the full human race is
under bondage of sin and death and no one however young is
immune to death, be they 1 hour or 80 years old, none of us is
promised tomorrow you are acting as if G ...[text shortened]... as given us life in the first
place let alone setup the life expectancy of all life too.
Kelly
23 Jul 07
2 edits
Originally posted by rwingettGod deals with each of us the same way each and every time what
You refuse to read the text as it is written. Pharaoh did not steel himself against what is right. God steeled him. The bible says repeatedly that god hardened Pharaoh's heart, not that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Pharaoh did not have free will in that situation because god had made his decision for him.
we find is that our actions as a result depend on if we desire to
repent or not. Warnings sent to the wicked who only want to stay
wicked will not get the same results as those that do not wish to stay
that way, others will repent. God simply gave him a choice and reasons
to act as God told him he needed too, but Pharaoh's heart became
hard. It is simply the same from that time till now, 'who so ever will' it
hasn't changed, you either answer the call or you reject it which
hardens your heart. You hear you reject, you keep doing that if will
work your heart over.
Kelly
Matthew 13:15
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
23 Jul 07
Originally posted by Stregone... and there are many who parrot Richard Dawkins's words ..... the song is becoming boring.
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. ~ Pg. 31