Ok this thread is specifically calling SecondSon and Sonship to the platform to discuss precisely what it is we all need to know about Jesus and his alleged oversight of the burning of people in Hell for eternity. I’d include JellyKay but he’s got me on ignore as usual.
Why am I starting this thread? Both of the protagonists mentioned are keen to highlight the literalism of eternal suffering, or everlasting punishment, but both are reluctant to step up to the mark and stand up for what THEY believe this doctrine actually really entails.
Here is my opening gambit:
I contest that the doctrine of death, the doctrine of eternal suffering as laid out by those who believe in it and as it has been discussed in dozens of threads over years in this forum, fundamentally describes a version of the Christian God, including the “Lamb” (Jesus) overseeing the deliberate, purposeful burning alive of what will effectively be billions of non-christians who are supernaturally kept alive to endure this suffering for eternity. That is the actual outworking of this doctrine.
Sonship, SecondSon, if I am misrepresenting this doctrine or what you believe about it, please feel free to step in and correct my understanding.
Thank you.
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@divegeester
You like repetition of these debates with the same person?
This is my question to you: Paul wrote that we know in part, we prophesy in part. Paul said we see today through a glass darkly. In the end he says, we will know even as we are known.
Now if you are a saved man and turn out to be basically wrong that God does eternally punish the un-reconciled somewhere away from Himself, will you request that you want to be with them?
Will you say something like "God, I see that I was wrong that you do have some eternal punishment to the unredeemed, unreconciled sinner. I think you are unrighteous to do so. And frankly, I would rather be away from You and be forever with Satan and those condemned along with Satan. Can you make it so that I am forever away from unrighteous YOU and share my eternal destiny with Satan and his followers?"
Will that be your request to Jesus Christ and God?
And if not, why not ?
@sonship saidYour inability to pick up the “gauntlet” thrown down in my OP is noted.
@divegeester
You like repetition of these debates with the same person?
This is my question to you: Paul wrote that we know in part, we prophesy in part. Paul said we see today through a glass darkly. In the end he says, we will know even as we are known.
Now if you are a saved man and turn out to be basically wrong that God does eternally punish the un-recon ...[text shortened]... s followers?" [/i]
Will that be your request to Jesus Christ and God?
And if not, why not ?
Your disgraceful doctrine describes a Jesus who overseas the eternal burning alive of non-Christians in Hell.
Deny it, prove me wrong.
14 Sep 19
@sonship saidAre you finally ditching your torturer god ideology?
@divegeester
You like repetition of these debates with the same person?
This is my question to you: Paul wrote that we know in part, we prophesy in part. Paul said we see today through a glass darkly. In the end he says, we will know even as we are known.
Now if you are a saved man and turn out to be basically wrong that God does eternally punish the un-recon ...[text shortened]... s followers?" [/i]
Will that be your request to Jesus Christ and God?
And if not, why not ?
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@sonship saidWhen I was 13 I had a schoolfriend, Stephen, who was a really easy going guy who I'd known since primary school (had attended many of his birthday parties). He was the kind of kid who would have helped anybody and not said boo to a goose. Anyway, for whatever reason, he befriended a kid a few years older who was an outright bully. I still remember vividly during the summer holidays, playing tennis with the younger brother of another friend, when Stephen and this older kid decided to come and give us a hard time. While the older kid threatened me with a bottle, Stephen wound down the tennis net to prevent us from playing.
@divegeester
You like repetition of these debates with the same person?
This is my question to you: Paul wrote that we know in part, we prophesy in part. Paul said we see today through a glass darkly. In the end he says, we will know even as we are known.
Now if you are a saved man and turn out to be basically wrong that God does eternally punish the un-recon ...[text shortened]... s followers?" [/i]
Will that be your request to Jesus Christ and God?
And if not, why not ?
Any God who would burn people alive for all eternity is such a bully, and any Christian who would stand quietly in his shadow and not protest, is just another Stephen.
14 Sep 19
@divegeester saidIn order to arrive at that doctrine, they have to add to the bible, as it is not ever stated clearly that unbelievers are tormented for eternity. If there is such a passage I would concede the point that the bible says so. There is none.
Ok this thread is specifically calling SecondSon and Sonship to the platform to discuss precisely what it is we all need to know about Jesus and his alleged oversight of the burning of people in Hell for eternity. I’d include JellyKay but he’s got me on ignore as usual.
Why am I starting this thread? Both of the protagonists mentioned are keen to highlight the l ...[text shortened]... what you believe about it, please feel free to step in and correct my understanding.
Thank you.
The bible says that the the evil people are cast into the lake of fire. Their assumptions [the adding to the bible], are
1 that the lake of fire is a place of torment and anyone cast in is tormented for eternity.
2 that man has an immortal soul that cannot die.
Both assumptions are unbiblical church doctrines. If they find references to support these assumptions then I can concede the point.
The doctrine is just one more on the long list of false doctrines preached by churches.
14 Sep 19
2 edits
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWell, this is not an argument that looks to if it is true or not is it; it is one of approval nothing more. I dislike the notion of separation from God, for anyone, but God is not forcing anyone to stay separated from Him. There was no reason for God to act on our behalf; we moved to place ourselves above God; justly, we rightly deserved to be condemned for our sins.
When I was 13 I had a schoolfriend, Stephen, who was a really easy going guy who I'd known since primary school (had attended many of his birthday parties). He was the kind of kid who would have helped anybody and not said boo to a goose. Anyway, for whatever reason, he befriended a kid a few years older who was an outright bully. I still remember vividly during the s ...[text shortened]... y, and any Christian who would stand quietly in his shadow and not protest, is just another Stephen.
That was not what happens instead out of love for us; Jesus came sent by God to lay down His life for us. Christ took all of our guilt upon Himself, for all of our sins! He was then made to suffer the wrath of God for them all. The suffering and wrath were poured out against the sinless Christ, a separation from the Father and Holy Spirit that has never occurred until He took our guilt upon Himself soiled by our sin for us.
All will stand before God's judgment; this means we will stand before Jesus Christ that went through all of that for us. We will have the blood of Jesus cleansing us of our sins, or not! The guilt of our sins remains on us outside of Christ. This time the sinner will pay in full by the wrath of God; no justification will do outside of Jesus when the justifier is the Judge who will judge us fairly. Any that trusted in anything else or anyone else will find their faith outside of Jesus Christ will come up wanting.
Just because you don't like the idea of eternal being suffering in torment for actions, words, sins, and wickedness is not a justification for it not happening. I hate the evil in this world; I hate the death of loved ones, and so on, and these things still occur. Our sensibilities and views about this or that has nothing to do with the reality of God's judgment. It is either a hard fact we are warned about in scripture by the words of Jesus, or not our desires are meaningless towards it's being real or not, like it or not that day is fast approaching.
14 Sep 19
@kellyjay said'Thank goodness God is not fair' ... 'everyone deserves to be tortured for eternity' ... 'genocide is good if the ancient Hebrews said God told them to do it'... 'torture is good because ... it's good because it's good'... such is the composition of your moral "north star".
Well, this is not an argument that looks to if it is true or not is it; it is one of approval nothing more. I dislike the notion of separation from God, for anyone, but God is not forcing anyone to stay separated from Him. There was no reason for God to act on our behalf; we moved to place ourselves above God; justly, we rightly deserved to be condemned for our sins.
Tha ...[text shortened]... desires are meaningless towards it's being real or not, like it or not that day is fast approaching.
14 Sep 19
@rajk999 saidHell is described and stated clearly in scripture, but like many other scriptures if anyone refuses to take the words on face value they find themselves in error.
In order to arrive at that doctrine, they have to add to the bible, as it is not ever stated clearly that unbelievers are tormented for eternity. If there is such a passage I would concede the point that the bible says so. There is none.
The bible says that the the evil people are cast into the lake of fire. Their assumptions [the adding to the bible], are
1 that the la ...[text shortened]... e point.
The doctrine is just one more on the long list of false doctrines preached by churches.
14 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidAre you saying that your interpretation of scripture [as you believe it applies to your torturer god ideology] is the correct one?
Hell is described and stated clearly in scripture, but like many other scriptures if anyone refuses to take the words on face value they find themselves in error.
14 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidIf the doctrine was stated in the bible you would have provided the references. So far all you have is church assumptions. I rest my case.
Hell is described and stated clearly in scripture, but like many other scriptures if anyone refuses to take the words on face value they find themselves in error.
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14 Sep 19
Your inability to pick up the “gauntlet” thrown down in my OP is noted.
Your disgraceful doctrine describes a Jesus who overseas the eternal burning alive of non-Christians in Hell.
Deny it, prove me wrong.
So you wish to taunt me and thereby give me some self vindicating incentive to argue with you some more?
I thought you eventually complained that I would be spending better time telling people without here about the need to be saved. You've changed now and think it would be more profitable to have another long argument with you?
I thought you had a good point there. While re-arguing with your entrenched disagreement I could be communicating with others who would welcome that aspect of the Gospel.
What did you think of my thread on "Eleven Reasons for Assurance" ?
@sonship saidA 100-word dodge including a plug for one of your vanity threads on a different topic.
So you wish to taunt me and thereby give me some self vindicating incentive to argue with you some more?
I thought you ev ect of the Gospel.
What did you think of my thread on "Eleven Reasons for Assurance" ?
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14 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidIf a loving God truly exists my friend, nobody is in danger of eternal torment.
Well, this is not an argument that looks to if it is true or not is it; it is one of approval nothing more. I dislike the notion of separation from God, for anyone, but God is not forcing anyone to stay separated from Him. There was no reason for God to act on our behalf; we moved to place ourselves above God; justly, we rightly deserved to be condemned for our sins.
Tha ...[text shortened]... desires are meaningless towards it's being real or not, like it or not that day is fast approaching.
Nobody.
14 Sep 19
@divegeester saidThis is my preliminary reply. I know you're passionate about this topic, so I want to give it serious thought and consideration before attempting a reply.
Ok this thread is specifically calling SecondSon and Sonship to the platform to discuss precisely what it is we all need to know about Jesus and his alleged oversight of the burning of people in Hell for eternity. I’d include JellyKay but he’s got me on ignore as usual.
Why am I starting this thread? Both of the protagonists mentioned are keen to highlight the l ...[text shortened]... what you believe about it, please feel free to step in and correct my understanding.
Thank you.
At the earliest it will be later tonight. I have a wedding to attend today, (not my own) and some things to do now.
Hopefully we can arrive at an understanding and lay this question to rest.