@fmf said
Why have you never confronted those Christians here who insist that those not "saved" will be tormented in burning flames for eternity?

Because I have never read where any Christian in this forum ever said "that those not "saved" will be tormented in burning flames for eternity".

For the record though, if there are any Christians posting in this forum that believe the Bible teaches "that those not "saved" will be tormented in burning flames for eternity", you are mistaken.

Happy now FMF?

@secondson said
Because I have never read where any Christian in this forum ever said "that those not "saved" will be tormented in burning flames for eternity".

This theology/ideology has been explicitly articulated, mentioned, alluded to, defended, argued, justified and described literally hundreds of times since you started posting.

@secondson said
For the record though, if there are any Christians posting in this forum that believe the Bible teaches "that those not "saved" will be tormented in burning flames for eternity", you are mistaken.

Why not confront KellyJay or sonship then? Why are you using me as a proxy?

@secondson said
Your opening gambit.

[b]"I contest that the doctrine of death, the doctrine of eternal suffering as laid out by those who believe in it and as it has been discussed in dozens of threads over years in this forum, fundamentally describes a version of the Christian God, including the “Lamb” (Jesus) overseeing the deliberate, purposeful burning alive of what will effectively ...[text shortened]... That's what I believe, and I don't want anyone to go there. No effing way.

And neither does God.

After all that lecture on phrasing comments exactly as the bible states it, you then talk about separation from God. There is NO SUCH THING IN THE BIBLE. That is what hypocrisy i s . .. doing exactly what you tell people not to do.

How about an honest reply about what you believe instead of beating around the bush. You focus on the wording of Dive's post rather than on the gist and the intent of what [you very well know] he is trying to say.

The question is - what happens to those who are not in the Kingdom of God?

SO far you say they are not tormented for eternity. Can you state what happens. My interpretation is that they are annihilated. What is yours.

@fmf said
Why not confront KellyJay or sonship then? Why are you using me as a proxy?

He is driven by 'buddy loyalty'. Not a very objective and honest person to debate with.

@rajk999 said
He is driven by 'buddy loyalty'. Not a very objective and honest person to debate with.

Wow, you've just described the 3 amigos.
Well actually, 4 amigos, including yourself.

None of you actually debate or confront each other about anything, so don't be a hypocrite.

@rajk999 said
After all that lecture on phrasing comments exactly as the bible states it, you then talk about separation from God. There is NO SUCH THING IN THE BIBLE. That is what hypocrisy i s . .. doing exactly what you tell people not to do.

How about an honest reply about what you believe instead of beating around the bush. You focus on the wording of Dive's post rather than on t ...[text shortened]... ernity. Can you state what happens. My interpretation is that they are annihilated. What is yours.

"annihilated" That word is in the Bible, it is only talking about a natural death nothing more.

Esther 7:4
For we have been sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be killed, and to be annihilated. If we had been sold merely as slaves, men and women, I would have been silent, for our affliction is not to be compared with the loss to the king.”

The words I see relating to how long someone will suffer torment is longer:

Revelation 14:
"...their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night,..."
Revelation 20:
"...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Also the word torment is used to illustrate other things as well, though none good, it could go from regret to harm.

1 Samuel 16:14
Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him.

2 Samuel 13:2
And Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her.

Psalm 137:3
For there our captors required of us songs, and our tormentors, mirth, saying, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”

Luke 16:27-29 English Standard Version (ESV)
And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

Righteousness, judgment, holiness demands an answer for sins, it will be rendered either by our savior taking it upon Himself, or by ourselves standing before God in our sins.

@secondson said
But I also don't believe the Bible teaches that the damned are set on fire and burn in lava in total agonizing pain and suffering for all eternity while we all sit around being entertained by it.

So those scriptures pertaining to non Christians being cast into lakes of fire and their suffering being everlasting, which sonship, KellyJay and others claim are literal, are in your opinion actually metaphorical?

@kellyjay said
"annihilated" That word is in the Bible, it is only talking about a natural death nothing more.

Esther 7:4
For we have been sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be killed, and to be annihilated. If we had been sold merely as slaves, men and women, I would have been silent, for our affliction is not to be compared with the loss to the king.”

The words I see relat ...[text shortened]... ndered either by our savior taking it upon Himself, or by ourselves standing before God in our sins.

What would be the moral purpose of the 3 millionth year of tormenting ~ in burning flames ~ in secret ~ of someone for not believing in Jesus?

@fmf said
What would be the moral purpose of the 3 millionth year of tormenting ~ in burning flames ~ in secret ~ of someone for not believing in Jesus?

The knowledge that they will be there suffering eternal helps sonship forgive those people who have mistreated him.

According to him.

@kellyjay said
"annihilated" That word is in the Bible, it is only talking about a natural death nothing more.

Esther 7:4
For we have been sold, I and my people, to be destroyed, to be killed, and to be annihilated. If we had been sold merely as slaves, men and women, I would have been silent, for our affliction is not to be compared with the loss to the king.”

The words I see relat ...[text shortened]... ndered either by our savior taking it upon Himself, or by ourselves standing before God in our sins.

Yes yes yes we all know what written in the bible and we are familiar with your flowery stump-speeches about “it’s in the bible”.

It’s your interpretation of these scriptures which is the issue.

@rajk999 said
After all that lecture on phrasing comments exactly as the bible states it, you then talk about separation from God. There is NO SUCH THING IN THE BIBLE.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Matthew 25:32&46
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You're right Rajk. There's no such thing in the Bible.

And I was wrong about you. You're not a reprobate and a heretic. You're just plain ignorant.

@secondson said
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Matthew 25:32&46
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into ...[text shortened]... ble.

And I was wrong about you. You're not a reprobate and a heretic. You're just plain ignorant.

Thank you for that.

In Matt 25, Jesus separates the good from the evil. The good enters the Kingdom of God and the evil is cast out.

In Isaiah, sin is what separates man from God.

Your church doctrine states that a man can profess faith, continue on with sin and still be with God ie he is not separated from God.

Your name calling went over my head.

@secondson said
But I also don't believe the Bible teaches that the damned are set on fire and burn in lava in total agonizing pain and suffering for all eternity while we all sit around being entertained by it.

I ask you again...

So those scriptures pertaining to non Christians being cast into lakes of fire and their suffering being everlasting, which sonship, KellyJay and others claim are literal, are in your opinion actually metaphorical

@ghost-of-a-duke said
If a loving God truly exists my friend, nobody is in danger of eternal torment.

Nobody.

I think you can not defend that!